A Pasifika Super Rugby side?

@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

The thing is, I've advocated for the Rebels. But holy fuck, that was the mother of all contradictions.

AUSSIE RUGBY IS FINE YOU ARROGANT KIWI!!

VIVA LA FORCE!

@shark I didn't mean to delete it.

I said that i don't think that not being able to be the top team in a city means that the sport is not worth pursuing at all in that area. Just have to accept it's going to be small.

But, regardless, it still does not contradict the reasons that i gave as to why RA would never agree to cut another team. I mean, how could a sport with 5 teams averaging 50k a game x 2 a week cut one of the teams contributing to it? madness. RA would not survive another cut. Hell you could argue that RA going bankrupt might be better for rugby in the long long run. But RA itself would never facilitate it.

@mariner4life righto buddy. I have been trying to engage meaningfully, and you are in fact acting like an arrogant kiwi.

@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@mariner4life righto buddy. I have been trying to engage meaningfully, and you are in fact acting like an arrogant kiwi.

I think I get where you are coming from.

I've hated the rebels since their first ever existence. The whole thing felt very corporate, from their signings to their management. They were saved in that hey had some really good players in their early years. Correspond that with the Force, who always seemed to get decent crowds, were fantastically placed for teams going to/from SA and seemed to be more about establishing rugby in the region. I was gutted when they were cut & the Rebel's continued.

Corporate led teams are always going to prosper in the short term, but eventually go to shit in the medium - long. Where as I thought the Force were doing the opposite.

What would I know, I suppose.

@MajorRage said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

Corporate led teams are always going to prosper in the short term, but eventually go to shit in the medium - long. Where as I thought the Force were doing the opposite.

Do the Force not fit the former category by having a billionaire benefactor (now if not initially)?

@Snowy they didn’t when I followed them.

@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@shark I didn't mean to delete it.

I said that i don't think that not being able to be the top team in a city means that the sport is not worth pursuing at all in that area. Just have to accept it's going to be small.

But, regardless, it still does not contradict the reasons that i gave as to why RA would never agree to cut another team. I mean, how could a sport with 5 teams averaging 50k a game x 2 a week cut one of the teams contributing to it? madness. RA would not survive another cut. Hell you could argue that RA going bankrupt might be better for rugby in the long long run. But RA itself would never facilitate it.

I put it back for you.

@MajorRage said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@Snowy they didn’t when I followed them.

Yeah. Present day Force is a bit different and agree with the sentiment about the Rebels.
If SA teams aren't involved in a "Super" comp it changes quite a lot geographically. The Force were always a stopover for their home matches.

@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@mariner4life righto buddy. I have been trying to engage meaningfully, and you are in fact acting like an arrogant kiwi.

i am an arrogant kiwi

you keep saying stuff, but none of it is based on reality, it's wish list stuff

The problem with both the Rebels and the Force is they are not backed up by anything. The only place they can get players is to raid the NSW/Qld development pathways and pinch their players. Are those states producing enough talent to prop up 5 super sides? really?

Your argument is basically that the comp should just muddle along until such time that local pathways develop themselves in Melbourne and Perth. The chances of that happening are pretty bloody slim, even in 20 years.

@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

So this proposed Pasifika franchise being supported by Beegee Williams, despite being promoted to the contrary, can only take away from the already thinning depth of the five NZ SR squads.

They're saying they'll focus on bringing back European-based Pasifika players for 2022. Now given they're Auckland-based, commercially this makes zero sense as who is going to spring up out of nowhere to give them the money to achieve something NZ Rugby with much greater revenue streams hasn't been able to achieve over years and years? The only guys I would imagine they could afford to pay when competing with the Pound or Franc, would be guys at the end of their careers.

The other source of players - and the only one mentioned for 2021 - is fringe SR players of Pacifika heritage in the NPC. This only serves to undermine the five wafer-thin and increasingly youthful NZ squads.

They speak of developing Pasifika players in NZ. Sorry, but if they're worth developing they've already been identified and are in the system. Again, there's no undiscovered player well yet to be plumbed.

Lastly, this especially undermines the Blues, dividing their support base, further pressuring their development system and possibly costing them commercial partners.

Yuck.

Agree with this 100%
A terrible idea which has the potential to do a lot of damage but will add very little.

It totally undermines our one advantage which is 5 strong super rugby teams.

It's embarrassing for the organisers that they're even attempting this with a straight face.

Throw in a definition of Pasifika too. Technically they are Kiwis.

"“Pasifika” and “Pasifika peoples” are terms used by the Ministry of Education to “describe people living in New Zealand who have migrated from the Pacific Islands or who identify with the Pacific Islands because of ancestry or heritage.”

OR:
Pasifika is a term that is unique to Aotearoa and is a term coined by government agencies to describe migrants from the Pacific region and their descendants, who now call Aotearoa home.

I used those because that is the government definition.

So no Fijians either. Pasifika are supposed to be Polynesian, not Melanesian. Do we really want a racially selected side? Who qualifies? Born there? A parent from there? Had a week there on holiday? How brown do you have to be? We have been through these arbitrary qualification issues with international rugby and had Grannygate and suchlike.

Luring players back from overseas? Why did they leave in the first place? It might have been the money, not lack of opportunity? Or they might not have been good enough to make one of our existing teams.

Should we have a dentists of Chinese origin side? A pilots descended from Vikings side? Bass players from Wellington? Ex pats from Eastbourne who like Hummus?

Then add in dilution of talent as @shark says and you end up with:

Yuck.

You'd think, if this ever was to work, that it'd have to be open to players of all ethnicities but with a strong Polynesian flavour. You couldn't make it officially a racially selected side when it's not even a national team, surely.

@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

You'd think, if this ever was to work, that it'd have to be open to players of all ethnicities but with a strong Polynesian flavour. You couldn't make it officially a racially selected side when it's not even a national team, surely.

Yeah, that sounds like a good concept. You could base it in Auckland where there is a large base of pacific islanders.
You could give it a name like “The Blues” or something catchy like that.
Would take about 25 years to build up a long history of great pacific island ex players though.

@Snowy said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

So no Fijians either. Pasifika are supposed to be Polynesian, not Melanesian.

The two definitions you posted don't specify that Pasifika is a term for Polynesians only.

@Nepia said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@Snowy said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

So no Fijians either. Pasifika are supposed to be Polynesian, not Melanesian.

The two definitions you posted don't specify that Pasifika is a term for Polynesians only.

Yeah that has me thoroughly confused. What have we missed @Snowy ?

@Bones said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@Nepia said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@Snowy said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

So no Fijians either. Pasifika are supposed to be Polynesian, not Melanesian.

The two definitions you posted don't specify that Pasifika is a term for Polynesians only.

Yeah that has me thoroughly confused. What have we missed @Snowy ?

That came from the Wiki definition and another reference which I could probably find again.

It’s not the point though. I don’t want a team based on Melanesian or Polynesian, or Caucasian or any thing else heritage.

@Snowy said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

I don’t want a team based on Melanesian or Polynesian, or Caucasian or any thing else heritage.

Agreed. We're in the 21st century.

A Pasifika team only makes sense if they are based in Suva or Honolulu etc.

@mofitzy_ said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

A Pasifika team only makes sense if they are based in Suva or Honolulu etc.

Well considering about half of the Tongan and Samoan RWC squads (their most recent) were born outside of Tonga, mostly in NZ, not counting those that moved to NZ as kids, it’s a bit of a moot point!

@Machpants said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@mofitzy_ said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

A Pasifika team only makes sense if they are based in Suva or Honolulu etc.

Well considering about half of the Tongan and Samoan RWC squads (their most recent) were born outside of Tonga, mostly in NZ, not counting those that moved to NZ as kids, it’s a bit of a moot point!

That was my point about the definition of Pasifika.

They actually have to be Kiwis (according to the government) and of Polynesian origin to qualify. You are not Pasifika if you are actually on one of the Polynesian islands. NZ must be your home. Which ignores the fact that NZ are Pacific islands.
The whole thing is bollocks.

A Pasifika franchise based in Auckland sends a message (to me) that NZers of PI origin are not really even expected to be Aucklanders?

I'm a honky, maybe I'm too sensitive. London Irish etc exists. Although on the flip side in soccer Sydney Croatia and Melbourne Hellenic etc got their heritage stripped in the late NSL days. I'm more influenced by that. But none of these examples are creating 2 teams in one city, they were just one of a proliferation of clubs in those cities.

@Rapido You’ve got London Irish, London Welsh, it’s pretty common in big metro cities to have sides that are around outside cultures. But they are mostly (all?) just names.

I agree that a Pacific Side needs to be in the pacific, otherwise it is just a drain on our depth and a glorified 6th NZ (or Oz) team.

maybe the Pacific team should be based in the pacific except for maybe a blues game where they could play in auckland, purely because they might get a huge crowd? one home game played away like the saders and chiefs did

Pacific Islanders in Auckland already have a Super Rugby team to support; the Blues.

@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

Pacific Islanders in Auckland already have a Super Rugby team to support; the Blues.

i think the idea would be that, this year aside, the blues haven't had the fan turnout that might be expected for such a large population, both Pacific Islanders and non, and this might be a way to attract those that haven't been attracted before

@Kiwiwomble People weren't turning up because they were sick of seeing the Blues snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Adding a less competitive team won't fix that.

@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@Kiwiwomble People weren't turning up because they were sick of seeing the Blues snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Adding a less competitive team won't fix that.

i dont know for sure, but lots of other sports manage to get big turnouts for teams not doing well, "support you're team do or die stuff"

@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@Kiwiwomble People weren't turning up because they were sick of seeing the Blues snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Adding a less competitive team won't fix that.

i dont know for sure, but lots of other sports manage to get big turnouts for teams not doing well, "support you're team do or die stuff"

That doesn't change my point.

@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@Kiwiwomble People weren't turning up because they were sick of seeing the Blues snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Adding a less competitive team won't fix that.

i dont know for sure, but lots of other sports manage to get big turnouts for teams not doing well, "support you're team do or die stuff"

That doesn't change my point.

doesn't it? you said that the fans might have stopped coming because they were sick of the blues loosing, i was saying it might not have been that but they just didn't feel a connection to the team and a Pacific team might be more attractive to them regardless of results

@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@Kiwiwomble People weren't turning up because they were sick of seeing the Blues snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Adding a less competitive team won't fix that.

i dont know for sure, but lots of other sports manage to get big turnouts for teams not doing well, "support you're team do or die stuff"

That doesn't change my point.

doesn't it? you said that the fans might have stopped coming because they were sick of the blues loosing, i was saying it might not have been that but they just didn't feel a connection to the team and a Pacific team might be more attractive to them regardless of results

What's more likely? A team that had good crowds, with superstar players of PI ancestry suffers diminishing crowds over a prolonged period of poor results, or people just didn't feel a connection?

This looks like woke nonsense.

@antipodean sorry, should have known better

Not to mention the bumper crowds once results improved this year.

@Kiwiwomble said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@antipodean said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

@Kiwiwomble People weren't turning up because they were sick of seeing the Blues snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Adding a less competitive team won't fix that.

i dont know for sure, but lots of other sports manage to get big turnouts for teams not doing well, "support you're team do or die stuff"

Force and Rebels perfect example of that, right...?

@pukunui said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

Not to mention the bumper crowds once results improved this year.

And everybody had been locked up, with no sport to watch.

As if NZ have the patience to make a Blues duplicate work. It's a 20 year+ exercise. You lot are already throwing your toys out the pram at having to play the Rebels and Force.

@junior ....do the force and rebels play a different sport?

@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:

As if NZ have the patience to make a Blues duplicate work. It's a 20 year+ exercise. You lot are already throwing your toys out the pram at having to play the Rebels and Force.

we don't want that team. Try to keep up