Why this feels different

@nzzp it's the first all black loss at a world cup since I left NZ. And I'm in England. I'd forgotten this feeling and it's not pleasant...i reckon I'd probably be more at peace if I was back home though eh!

@nzzp Agree with a lot of the above. Been a great ride since 2009. So many special players and performances from the last decade. Wiining a third consecutive RWC was a tough ask when all the other sides are watching you and learning from you. Always thought a side would rise above themselves to end our era sooner or later and so it proved.

Once the Ioane brothers didn't make the team, I was never that optimistic about this RWC for the All Blacks. We needed those two fantastic athletes to be in top form for 2019 to be our year. Brodie's injury didn't help either.

I've seen England as a dangerous side for a while. Eddie has been putting together a great set of forwards and an England squad with a fantastic attitude for some time.

Two surprises though:

1. How well George Ford played yesterday.

2. How badly the All Blacks played and how soon ran out of ideas once Plan A didn't work.

For me it is not the loss but the manner of it that hurts. Haven't seen our Forward pack outclassed like that for a long, long time.

@Bones England would not be a good place to live right now. Now in the States no one knows we lost or that there was even a game.

@nzzp agreed.

As much as we’d like to, there is no way we can win it all the time.

Just hope the Boks beat those bloody Poms.

It sucks to lose, but it’s not all doom and gloom either like some on here are portraying.

The sun came up today, and the All Blacks are, and will continue to be a very good rugby team and win 8 or 9 times out of 10.

@broughie said in Why this feels different...:

@Bones England would not be a good place to live right now. Now in the States no one knows we lost or that there was even a game.

Sadly can’t be escaped. Wife’s friend knows nothing about rugby or that there is a RWC on but was kind enough to check in to see if I saw the All Blacks lost.

The source? Prince Harry’s Instagram feed. Inescapable.

I’m down , but nothing like the other losses ,

I think the pain with those losses for me, seemed to accumulate and get stronger One at a time ,

91 wasn’t as bad , 95 got worse and so on until we get to 2007 which was the worst for me,

Maybe this one feels a bit like 91 on reflection

I cried in 03 being a moody teenager and all was pissed off in 07 but like I post suggests I don’t feel down at all to be completely out played like that has kinda disapated the pain

I don’t feel down. Past sports affecting my psyche. Just in a rush to move on, looking forward to hopefully good changes in the coaching staff with a plan to play up tempo and expansive behind a pack with major cajones. We need to be able to play England at their game if needed.

It’s Sunday morning, the sun has come up, it’s just a game.

2003 and 2007 I didn’t want to get out of bed, but up and about now. I still feel proud to be an All Black’s supporter despite the frustration of last night’s game.

Whilst i did dream about Shag throwing BB under the bus I am not that upset. At the end of the day we have nobody to blame but ourselves, the better team won, and won easily.

I am actually now excited to see what a new coaching team will bring to the party.

Yes winning back to back has certainly made the reaction to this one different, even if this was more avoidable than past loses. Was like a two year slow motion car crash.

I also think, with a neutral hat on, us winning three in a row would have been bad for Test rugby. Might have broken the World Cup, as the other country’s might have started tinkering with the format to make it harder for us. Jealousy is a thing.

Agree with all those saying it doesn't hurt as bad.

1991 was bad because it was inconceivable we could lose and not be world champions.

Every single test match, let alone each RWC, after that was (for me) about proving we're the best in the world.

2011 rid us of the monkey, 2015 bought us immunity from monkeys for at least 4 more years ...

@nzzp agree entirely.

I have no angst over the result.

There was no food poisoning that affected us, no forward pass that wasn't ruled on.

We just lost to a team that clearly played better than us on the day.

So let's go for 2023.

Yep nailed it there. Nothing like those other losses. Beat by a better team on the day, in fact we were damn lucky as the scoreline flattered us.

Now get to watch the rest of the cup stress free.

Now if we don't perform in 2023 then that loss dread is probably sure to come back

It is hard to find one moment that would have changed that game. There were lots of moments in there which caused us to lose. It's hard to blame Hansen and be genuine about him because we weren't criticising him before hand, so we can't turn around and do it now.

@hydro11 said in Why this feels different...:

It is hard to find one moment that would have changed that game. There were lots of moments in there which caused us to lose. It's hard to blame Hansen and be genuine about him because we weren't criticising him before hand, so we can't turn around and do it now.

Plenty of people were, look how many times the Ireland loss was brought up.

I would hope that we (the rugby public) do show more maturity after this loss, and winning in 2011 and 2015 makes this one more bearable. When you are beaten by a much better team on the day there can't be any excuses.

NZ was the only major team that England hadn't beaten at a RWC, until now.

@Gunner said in Why this feels different...:

the All Blacks are, and will continue to be a very good rugby team and win 8 or 9 times out of 10.

Not if they play like that they won't.

That is the bit that gets me. Where was the passion, the determination, the physicality? They were completely run over like a possum in the headlights. Just roadkill.
I still haven't watched the last 9 minutes as it was a foregone conclusion and I was going to break something. I was more animated than any of our team.

Possibly a slightly better feeling than other losses as I wasn't actually in the crowd, but playing like wimps doesn't make it any easier. Credit to England for making us wimps though.

It pleases me to note that some of the biggest fluffybunnies in NZ are devastated about the loss.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/celebrities/116955244/all-blacks-v-england-kiwi-celebrities-share-world-cup-pain-on-social-media

@ACT-Crusader said in Why this feels different...:

It’s Sunday morning, the sun has come up, it’s just a game.

2003 and 2007 I didn’t want to get out of bed, but up and about now. I still feel proud to be an All Black’s supporter despite the frustration of last night’s game.

It's a beautiful sunny day in Nelson!

@Chris-B said in Why this feels different...:

@ACT-Crusader said in Why this feels different...:

It’s Sunday morning, the sun has come up, it’s just a game.

2003 and 2007 I didn’t want to get out of bed, but up and about now. I still feel proud to be an All Black’s supporter despite the frustration of last night’s game.

It's a beautiful sunny day in Nelson!

Isn't that pretty much always the case? Underrated part of the country

I'm more hungover than the other times we got knocked out

I am not as devastated over this loss, but one thing is nagging me. I am getting older, will I live to see another world cup win? @Chris-B, you are like the oldest person ever, you must be really worried!

I am hurting because I think it was one of our more inept displays for a long time but I will probably get over it a lot quicker than in previous WC losses. There will probably be more competition now for the No 1 world ranking - don't expect to see us holding it for lone periods like we are used too.

I think the other thing that hurts is that I feel it may take us a while to come back - we need some new blood now in positions like front row, lock and wing as well as the new coaching team perhaps coming up with a new style of play.

Jeez, I’m totally down. Maybe I’m alone in thinking that this was the worst AB display I can remember. It’s not the loss, it’s the manner of it.

What a fucking embarrassment. We looked like Scotland getting totally taken apart like that - in a WC cup semi final ffs.

It was horrible walking past all those fucking crowing English fluffybunnies to leave the stadium.

I’m still pissed off and I don’t and won’t forgive the coaches or some players for that performance.

@gt12 said in Why this feels different...:

Jeez, I’m totally down. Maybe I’m alone in thinking that this was the worst AB display I can remember. It’s not the loss, it’s the manner of it.

What a fucking embarrassment. We looked like Scotland getting totally taken apart like that - in a WC cup semi final ffs.

It was horrible walking past all those fucking crowing English fluffybunnies to leave the stadium.

I’m still pissed off and I don’t and won’t forgive the coaches or some players for that performance.

That is the part , that is starting to piss me off now it’s sinking in , I’m not upset , More pissed off.
The word soft is pretty offensive to a rugby player, but we were soft and England were tough .
No escaping that .

This may be severely tainted with my bitterness about walking out the stadium last night, at these fluffybunny Englishmen bleating about wonderful they were and how shit we were. And they were right, I had nothing to say except that they were, and are, worthy winners and deservedly favourites for the WC.

The risk analysis tragedy at the heart of the All Blacks

Every teams loses. Sport wouldn’t be interesting if a team didn’t– at least occasionally - lose. However, the AB loss to England was an embarrassing defeat for a group of coaches – and players - supposedly thought to have taken rugby to a 'new level'. The risk loving play and tactics of the players, when the situation clearly doesn’t call for it, has been a hallmark of Steve Hansen’s coaching since 2015 - and it’s one we should face up to as look to a new needed coaching group.

Firstly, let’s talk about how incredibly accurate, well-coached, and defensively sound England were. Watching the game live at the stadium, I was truly impressed at how much better they were – both offensively and defensively – than the ABs. They kicked very accurately, defended strongly (less accurately than NZ overall at 82% to 89%, but for more dominantly) and conceded less turnovers, with very few penalties. Furthermore, they didn’t play in their own half – they got the ball out into the NZ 40 (or deeper) and tried (successfully) to keep the game there.

The ABs on the other hand, well, that’s a different story.

Beyond the personal tragedies of this game from supposed leaders – such as Read’s five missed tackles (and BBBR’s three!), or Beauden Barrett’s three turnovers, or Aaron Smith’s ridiculous up and under to their 22 when we had great attacking ball – it is the consistent decisions by ABs to engage in risky plays that highlights why we couldn’t even get close to this England team. We simply never put them under any pressure. Why?

It amazes me to think that professional rugby players don’t know the (old) Ps, but it certainly seems that way: position, possession, pressure, points. We didn’t seem to value any of the first two, so it is little wonder that we didn’t seem to get any of the last.

Consistently, when we had opportunities, rather than try to work it through the forwards – we would try to go around the English, sometimes getting caught midfield (thanks to their effective rush) but often turning it over due to little kicks. Even those we regathered often had little meaning. An example is the cross kick to ALB – who was easily well covered – he caught it but was then easily taken to touch. Why kick that? Beauden Barrett, Aaron Smith, and Richie Mo’unga were all guilty of possession giveaways. It seems to be that the thinking is we’ll get plenty of opportunities, so one of them will come off. But, what if we only get one or two opportunities? Then what happens? You’ve just kicked it away to a team that won’t give it back in any place you want it. Now what? That’s All Black arrogance.

Even worse, when territory mattered, we’d either do something stupid (I’m looking at you Jordie Barrett with that stupid fucking attempted run and offload) or not kick deep enough. Sadly, our exits were just, pretty shit. Smith had two good exit box kicks to touch that I saw – apart from that I never saw us try to exit our territory with any real class. Barrett’s kicks were generally too short, while we commonly got pushed around by the English with superior kicks that found grass – posters have been talking about how Reece could be taken advantage of in this way and finally a team put that into play against us effectively. His danger man status hid the fact that he was also defensively a liability on kick coverage. His is the risk-loving strategy in selection.

Furthermore, we were just too happy to try and play rugby inside our half, rather than put it in their half. As a result, England had 62% of territory (and I’ll bet most of ours was in between halfway and their 40), making the game pretty easy in terms of tactics for them. Our kicks never put them under any territorial pressure, so they could attack us at will, from almost any field position. My favorite memory of the AB-Oz game from 2011 was Piri Weepu’s first kick to the corner – we got position to put on pressure, from which we generated possession and later on - points. It was beautiful and simple, but so well done. Where is that in this team? Why can’t we be traditionally pure with classical tactical soundness? Isn’t that a club that we are meant to have in our bag?

The Jordie Barrett attempted offload that led to a penalty – which put the game beyond reach - is the perfect example of this AB team seeing ‘pictures’ (as the coaches refer to them) that don’t match with the real risk involved. I’m sure that in Jordie’s mind, he could make a few metres, possibly even break through with an offload, and start us up on our way towards the winning try. But, he’s in our 22. If he fucks up, or anyone fucks up, or if the ball is dropped, it’s potentially curtains. That’s the game situation. He has a 99% certain clearance chance if he kicks or passes to BB for the clearance, but he chooses a risky run.

Why?

I think the problem is that he doesn’t accurately assess the risk of his action. He sees an isolated ‘picture’, designed (I think) to help players express themselves as well as they can. However, He didn’t seem to see it within the wider game, that is, with respect to the scoreboard pressure or the context. Even worse, that’s a pattern for him for which there has been no improvement.

But beyond the selection (hi Ben Smith @Tim) problem here, I wonder who is in charge of guiding these young men as they make decisions about how to respond to key pressure situations? Are they assessing these challenges appropriately? Is this game just a normal rugby game? Isn’t this rugby game very different to every other game? Isn’t that what we’ve learned from the last 30 years?

Once upon a time, we won a final by recognizing that we had to be a different kind of team – playing to the situation and context. It was certainly not pretty, but it was driven by a leader (and a group of senior players) who knew what the situation required.

Yesterday showed that the current players – including the leadership group and particularly this coaching group – haven’t learned that lesson. It’s been forgotten in trying to ‘revolutionize’ our play – devolving responsibility to players to make decisions based on what they ‘see’. But what if what they ‘see’ is not even close to the full picture? Is not assessed against the real potential risks of competition tournament rugby?

Is it because there has also been an abandonment of an overall game strategy? Certainly, we don’t have the quality of leadership as we had (no McCaw, Smith, etc.) but also shouldn’t two WC wins give the coaching team a better idea of what is required in that situation? How can this team continue to make bad decisions over 24 months (let’s go back to the Lion’s series) when faced with the rush defence? That’s on the coaches and the players. Why has there been no attempt to have multiple ways of playing the rush – incredibly they left the guy behind the pod alone all night last night, after one or two times it was clear that this player (often BBBR, also often Mo’unga) was under so much pressure they needed help, yet there was no inside fallback option available. They were just alone back there with flat options to the side they couldn’t use. The pass to the inside runner was completely shelved and our outsides were just pushed to the sideline while we never used our front running pods well at all. Then, we conceded interceptions, yet the risk-loving strategy to find outside space or try to kick to that space continued.

We are still one of the best teams in the world, certainly by player talent standards. We have the players - Japan has even shown that good players can be amazing with great coaching and a clear strategy – this is a problem of preparation. People go on about Eddie Jones and his brilliance – who the fuck didn’t know we were going to play England here? In this game? You’re fucking kidding me if that was a surprise, and furthermore, his brilliance seems to be more based on a desire to work harder and stronger and be more prepared than anyone out there. He’s even come out and said he’s been working on this for two and a half years. Of course he has. Who at the Abs hasn’t been considering that? Where were our plays designed to play to their weaknesses?

Maybe it suggests that after two WC wins, we just don’t want it enough anymore? Really want it – like ‘bone deep’ want it as they say? Have we got a preparation and conscientiousness problem in the players and coaches? Or, are they just not strategically sound enough to design tactics against the other premier coaches? If so, why the fuck would we reappoint any of the current coaches?

This team and coaching setup couldn’t beat the Lions. They lost to Ireland, twice. And, we got belittled by England at the WC. It’s not the defeat but the manner of it. Every time we’ve had to produce – except for Bledisloe cup games against an equally weak Aussie side while playing at Eden Park – we’ve been shown up.

This team has been too happy to make game losing decisions - it’s time to reassess the strategic and tactical goals of the ABs and relearn some key strategic insights from past failures. Maybe that’s why winning three WCs in a row will be the ultimate challenge for any team – it may be that the playing and coaching group just doesn’t have enough desire against teams desperate to make up for their past WC failures.

@gt12 I think I heard Gatland mention the very first battle they try to win is the one for half way, he said it was more important they controlled half way and spent more time in the opposition half than scoring freakish tries. Once you are in the right places you can build pressure that leads to penalties and opportunities.

I'm sure that the ABs got seduced into going wide after watching Aust having some success there a week earlier. The problem is that you need to earn that right first and the forwards failed to provide any platform to launch off, like they did against Ireland. Read's poor captaincy was evident as they didn't try to change tactics that clearly weren't working.

@gt12 Spot on analysis and comment GT, we did not seem to have a back up plan to the high risk rugby style that Eddie new we were going to play.

I know there has been a lot of comment on the Barrett Cane selection and I just wonder if Cane was maybe not fully fit and the selectors knew he probably at best only had 40 mins of rugby in him which was better to use at the back end rather than the start

I think what makes it a slightly easier pill to swallow is that in my opinion, that was up there as one of the best performances England has produced.

The pace, accuracy, agression, if it wasnt against us was something to behold.

We were simply not given any room or time to get into the game, they grabbed us by the balls in minute 1 and never needed to let go to regrip.

The onslaught we faced was something we might weather in the opening stanza v SA, but there was no let up, no weather the storm regroup and win, we barely got out of neutral.

I said 2 weeks ago when people were worrying about Ireland, I said I was worried about England.

That we were beaten by a performance like that, and 2011/2015 makes it easier to deal with.

@taniwharugby said in Why this feels different...:

The onslaught we faced was something we might weather in the opening stanza v SA, but there was no let up, no weather the storm regroup and win, we barely got out of neutral.

It's funny, seemed one of those games where the bounce of the ball just didn't go our way. they dropped a bit of ball, and opened the door to us - we just didn't go through. Seemed to spend the night kicking it back to them, being bundled into touch, or conceding turnovers at the breakdown.

In the end, we thought they'd be good enough to get 20-odd points. Just keeping us to 7 is the issue; we just weren't good enough to score. After last week, it's particularly disappointing, we had the capability, just didn't execute at all (or tkae good options)

@nzzp when you are on the Crest of the wave, the balls bounce your way, the 50-50 calls go your way...similarly when you are in the trough and cant see what's coming...

@sparky Ioane BROTHERS?? Akira is such a waste of talent it's criminal.

He needs a huge super season to be even sniffing an AB Jersey next year.

Yes the forward pack will not be one we look back at and go wow they are up there among the great packs we have fielded. Some great indivduals, and some that may go on to become AB greats, but not yet.

Just not enough raw horsepower in tjis front row. Sometimes the broadsword beats the rapier. I think Franks was missed. Didnt see anything more from Laulala than Frank's used to produce.

We were just straight out outplayed from minute 1 to 81.

@Number-10 yeah we had 2 calls go to us, we could have really got a hiding, the worst game the ABs have collectively played in my memory I reckon. (1981 Bokke series).

@BartMan said in Why this feels different...:

@sparky Ioane BROTHERS?? Akira is such a waste of talent it's criminal.

He didn't front in NPC this year. Could be a great if he gets his head right, but the chances of that are diminishing day by day. It's really sad.

@taniwharugby said in Why this feels different...:

I said 2 weeks ago when people were worrying about Ireland, I said I was worried about England.

I don't think it was that we weren't worried about England, but the fact that the ABs had to beat Ireland first before they would play England. QF loses don't go down well...

@gt12 said in Why this feels different...:

It was horrible walking past all those fucking crowing English fluffybunnies to leave the stadium.

THIS!
I sat down outside the stadium for about half an hour to get my shit together (unsuccessfully), and you could still hear bouts of that hateful “swing low” coming from inside.
Absolute fluffybunnies.
But with good reason to celebrate... their team was bloody good. The filthy bastard fluffybunnies.

What doesn’t feel different are the “reasons” for the loss being made on this forum.

Rewind 12 years ago and you could replay many of the same tag lines being put out last night and today with those following the France loss.

Forward pass aside, our tactics in the 2nd half in 07 were baffling and frustrating. Heard that today.

We missed experience - tick.

Leadership went missing and not just from the captain - tick.

Arrogance from coaches - I recall many saying Henry was so focused on the 2 AB XVs in 2006 that we never settled on one.

Strange selections leading in - Nonu and Weepu missing, Toeava in.