All Blacks vs Springboks I
What's most frustrating about that game is our pack actually matched up well physically. We got absolutely no change at all from Angus for the first 30 minutes, with zero penalties our way to the five or six he gave the Boks. Yet despite that we were still well in the game and started working our way back into it when he finally started reffing both teams.
But our structure with ball in hand, fucking hell, just clueless. A symptom of this is how bad our 10s are playing at the moment. Beauden commands the ball at 10 but then has no idea what to do with it. Then Mo'unga comes on and just goes missing. By that I mean he will take the ball at first receiver at set piece, then is unsighted for the next 2 - 4 phases as random players take the ball at first receiver, before popping up deeper and wider looking for space that isn't there. That shit may work at SR but at test level where you are up against organised rush defenses that pressure you and force mistakes, the 10 has to be directing play as much as possible.
That doesn't come down to the players though, the fact that our 10s play SO differently within the same team really shows they are just trying to do what they think will work, rather than trying to implement a specific gameplan. The fact that Foster took charge of the backs is fucking damning really.
On other aspects of the game, I thought the way Angus reffed the scrums really benefitted the Boks. He seemed to want no resets, and instead blow penalties against who he deemed was the cause of the issue, and decided early on that the Boks had the dominant scrum so favoured them even though neither team really got any ascendancy in terms of pushing the other pack backwards. That gave them a big leg up throughout the game.
ST was really good, it's a bit scary how much better he is than CT and Coles now. Subbing him off was a costly mistake, a tired ST was a lot better than an erratic Coles who made some costly errors deep in their half when we needed points.
I don't have too much to add on the rest of the side other than the obvious fact that this team is in a serious rut now, and it's clear the players don't buy into the direction set by Foster.
I'm not sure I'll bother watching next week, as it's a pretty big effort to get up when you have young kids, and there's little to get excited about at the moment. NZR are bearing the fruit of their incredibly poor decisions and are going to have to wear significant damage to the brand and legacy until they can move Foster on. Depressing times for ABs fans.
@Machpants said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
I think foster really believes he's got what it takes
havent read back...but to me, that right there seems to be a huge part of the issue.
Somehow, he genuinely believes he is doing good, and that things are on the right track, which is ironic given our players dont seem to have the same level of confidence in themselves and one another....
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@taniwharugby said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Machpants said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
I think foster really believes he's got what it takes
havent read back...but to me, that right there seems to be a huge part of the issue.
Somehow, he genuinely believes he is doing good, and that things are on track, which is ironic given our players dont seem to have the same level of confidence in themselves and one another....
The blind leading the blind
All is Black
Another day, another debacle.
While there were some clear improvements in this test such as the maul defence, the All Blacks still look like a team out of ideas and out of excuses.
You could see that in their rare moments on attack, with a succession of Hail Mary passes going to no one in particular. Again, there appeared to be no game plan and no structure. Again, we witnessed a complete inability to deal with the rush (offside) defence and the high balls.
Yet none of the Springboks’ tactics was surprising. It’s how they beat us last year after all. But we still have no effective response, no ideas, no confidence and absolutely no future under this coaching regime.
The worst thing is that this train-wreck was completely predictable when Foster was shovelled the job with little or no oversight. Of course, he needs to go, but then so does Mark Robinson and the NZR board. Indeed, this horror show could provide a case study for an MBA graduate in how to destroy a brand overnight.
Ultimately, the All Blacks’ directionless and uncharacteristically tentative on-field performances, despite the heroics and heart shown by individual players, are a mirror reflection of the disarray off the field - the Keystone cop head coach, the incompetent CEO and the arrogant and out of touch administrators drinking from a once overflowing trough of riches that has now run dry.
@BerniesCorner said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Awesome Silverlake timing
The value of their shareholding will have diminished so greatly that if won't cost that much when it comes to taking up any buy back options there might be in the contract.
@MrDenmore said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Yet none of the Springboks’ tactics was surprising. It’s how they beat us last year after all. But we still have no effective response, no ideas, no confidence and absolutely no future under this coaching regime.
They beat us last year with a last minute penalty and kick at the death. We had better attack last year to put pressure on the Boks. This year we couldn’t put any scoreboard pressure on them allowing them to just settle into their game.
@Mattasaurus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
What the fuck is with the "water break" bullshit?
A WR fuck up solution to the endless free access of ancillary staff to the playing area. Now instead of lots of small time wasting breathers, the behemoth players get to have a big breather when they call for it.
Well. Shit aye?
First. Awesome south Africa. Brutally effective rugby. Executed really really well. Consistently applied pressure. Kicked well. Contested brilliantly. Strong set piece. Good discipline. Hard at the ruck. That's how you win test matches.
Won territory and possession. If it was counted as time inside the opp 40m I reckon the stat is even more lopsided
I thought the new winger was man of the match until he got it very very wrong. Marx next best.
Their defence was good too. Typical Bok outside in defence but we played right in to it. Then they just threw a body in the ruck.
An excellent test match performance than probably felt pretty comfortable for a long time.
@Higgins said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@BerniesCorner said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Awesome Silverlake timing
The value of their shareholding will have diminished so greatly that if won't cost that much when it comes to taking up any buy back options there might be in the contract.
Maybe that was Robinson's master plan...get the money from silverlake, abs tanking, our value goes to hell, we buy the shares back at a 50th of what we sold them...bam, get that powder out, rwc 2023 baby!
I don't know if this has already been said but that BB collision was such a terrible look for the game and despite all the emphasis on head contact from tacklers we had 3 concussions last night from other things. Bad ones too.
For the last one I am pointing a finger at the deliberate SA tactic of throwing players in the air to disrupt without catching and Gardner for not stopping it early on.
When Arendsee took out JB in the air without any chance of a catch the line was drawn on the wrong side of acceptability and it was only a matter of time before another incident. Almost every time he went up it was just flinging himself into the zone and making it look like an attempt to catch.
These are the things that WR and refs need to get right out of the game, even if it is to remove aerial contests. Total negligence IMO.
@No-Quarter said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
On other aspects of the game, I thought the way Angus reffed the scrums really benefitted the Boks. He seemed to want no resets, and instead blow penalties against who he deemed was the cause of the issue, and decided early on that the Boks had the dominant scrum so favoured them even though neither team really got any ascendancy in terms of pushing the other pack backwards. That gave them a big leg up throughout the game.
Is there any rule on how long the ball stays in the scrum. I mean good on SA for milking the penalty but those first few it just seemed we waited ages until the AB's finally went backwards. Like is it a tug of war contest or is there some rule if the scrum is stable the 9 has to use it. I guess we would do the same if we had dominance and just shows another weakness of our game. It just seemed inevitable watching that wait long enough they get a penalty.
@Crucial last time Gardner red carded someone for taking BB in the air world rugby threw him under the bus and over turned the card....
For us.
Credit to the defence which was hugely improved, and the first half forward pack that actually matched them I thought. Yes they had slight advantages in their strength areas, but we did well elsewhere, and I was impressed we were holding. At half time considering the way the game played out I thought we were probably pretty happy with the score
But the entire backline should not be able to look their forwards in the face. Just absolute shit. Smashed in the kicking game and the catching game. As threatening as teen pop sensation in attack. No where to be seen when support was needed. And big errors at bad times.
BBarrett is playing shit. How the fuck does a dead loss like D Havili not only get picked, but guaranteed 80 minutes? Why can't we put up contestable kicks? Why can't we catch? Just rubbish
Then the bench? Fuck Dane Coles. Error. 2 lost lineouts. Frizzell scores a try but ends up net zero points.
The only time our attack looked threatening was in the first half when the fancy short passes were going nowhere so SBarrett said "fuck it" and just smashed on to the ball. Everyone followed and we suddenly looked dangerous. Oh wait, the 3 inside balls we threw all game worked too.
We can't apply pressure because we can't kick. We can't catch. And we can't keep thr ball because we don't make ground.
Much hurting and learning bullshit no doubt...
Watching them, there is no passion or urgency and not a cohesive combo amongst them at the moment.
Boks comfortably the better team.
ST and Ardie aside forwards pretty anonymous.. ABs noticeably passive compared to the Boks.
Cane spoke well afterwards... Poor bastard..Taine Randell in my mind.
No combo's in the backs still.. Defence and attack pretty ordinary
Ethan DG and Christie were good off the pine.
Rinse and repeat next week I suspect.
Would like to see some changes.. Doubt we see too much.
Very few should feel comfortable in the starting line up.
Ouur forwards issue on attack is we have completely abandoned power. Every set of phases today was all quick hands to try and find space even in close. Runners like savea, Ioane, and others trying to sidestep their way through. Absolutely no thought to smashing on to the ball at an angle to find a seam.
So we don't make ground. Their is constant pressure. We lose collisions, and we run out of players.
Hence the turnovers.
And thrn thr backline is either BB going nowhere himself or a fucking rubbish Havili cut out to a winger standing still on the chalk. Who gets tackled. Did our centre even touch the ball??
That was as bad as I have ever seen an AB side "attack"
@No-Quarter I just watching through the game again and I think you are being a little tricky with the truth. For example in the 20-30 minute period Beaudie received the ball as 1st receiver at either set piece or phase play only 3 times. Plenty of other players getting it at first receiver.
Beaudie is either in the second line or out the back during that period also.
He did some good things but he made some poor errors last night even with good ball. This is not even about pushing Mo’unga or any other player, but Beaudie hasn’t looked in control for a while and it sucks because he’s been a great player to watch. Ever since he was a rookie he’s been a high risk high reward player, but he learned to do that with control and and patience. He hasn’t played with control for a while now.
What do we make of A Smith at the moment? Still the world's best 9 or is it the poor performing forwards making him look out of form? He just seems to be missing that spark? His pass is still accurate but I wonder if we need more. He did run through the ruck in Irish 1 but he rarely threatens on attack.
Maybe it is just the mental space this team is in and must be hard for blokes that were part of the hey day of AB's rugby to now be staring down the barrel of one of the worst teams ever.
@chimoaus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
What do we make of A Smith at the moment? Still the world's best 9 or is it the poor performing forwards making him look out of form? He just seems to be missing that spark? His pass is still accurate but I wonder if we need more. He did run through the ruck in Irish 1 but he rarely threatens on attack.
Maybe it is just the mental space this team is in and must be hard for blokes that were part of the hey day of AB's rugby to now be staring down the barrel of one of the worst teams ever.
He's not what he was... Mitigation is he's playing behind a passive pack.. But I'd still be happy to see him ride the pine next weekend as hes not performing well enough currently.
@chimoaus if he has no running game, or doesnt have the ability to take the running option when it is there (are we even creating these) then it leaves pass or kick, makes it easier for the opposition to defend, especially when you look at field position, it often rules out the kick option, so you know he will pass, its just whether it is to the 1st man or the 3rd man, but either way, easy to pick off
'As a halfback, it is pretty noticeable': Aaron Smith on All Blacks' breakdown issues
The breakdown was an area that plagued the All Blacks at home against Ireland at times and has been a key work-on for Ian Foster's team.
@chimoaus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
What do we make of A Smith at the moment? Still the world's best 9 or is it the poor performing forwards making him look out of form? He just seems to be missing that spark?
He hasn’t been the worlds best halfback for a while (Dupont)
I think he’s half a yard slower than he used to be. That makes the breakdowns last a beat longer.
Christie looked good when he came on. He makes slightly more errors but he is so fast at getting to each breakdown and that gives the defence less time to set and disrupt
@mariner4life bang on. All 3 posts. This feels like the logical end point of your 1st round win in 2019. A team reliant on sensational individual moments from its outside backs.
You got two solid forward carries both in the first half. One from a prop early on and one from Scott Barrett who had his best game in black that I can remember. But both him and this iteration of Cane are just short of test quality. ST and Ardie were class.
From an outside perspective, I can’t see what Akira offers. But whatever it is, it isn’t enough to overcome the lack of balance in your loose trio.
Thoroughly enjoyed Cole’s work. Hands like two bags of limp dicks. Havilli an answer to a question no one’s asking. And Jordan won’t want to watch that tape ever again.
Thought the red-headed stepchild went well though.
@Smuts agreed on all points
I said after that 2019 game we lost everywhere but 5 brilliant minutes. We can't find those minutes any more, so all that's left is the losing.
@taniwharugby said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@chimoaus if he has no running game, or doesnt have the ability to take the running option when it is there (are we even creating these) then it leaves pass or kick, makes it easier for the opposition to defend, especially when you look at field position, it often rules out the kick option, so you know he will pass, its just whether it is to the 1st man or the 3rd man, but either way, easy to pick off
Only three all Blacks had zero runs, Lomax, Smith, and Christie. That's just dumb rugby, if you never run at 9 that takes a lot of pressure off the defenders. This is obviously a tactical coaching decision, and(like most of Foster's crap) totally ineffective
@ACT-Crusader said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@No-Quarter I just watching through the game again and I think you are being a little tricky with the truth. For example in the 20-30 minute period Beaudie received the ball as 1st receiver at either set piece or phase play only 3 times. Plenty of other players getting it at first receiver.
Beaudie is either in the second line or out the back during that period also.
He did some good things but he made some poor errors last night even with good ball. This is not even about pushing Mo’unga or any other player, but Beaudie hasn’t looked in control for a while and it sucks because he’s been a great player to watch. Ever since he was a rookie he’s been a high risk high reward player, but he learned to do that with control and and patience. He hasn’t played with control for a while now.
Dare we say it - ever since he went to Japan.
@mariner4life and as most keep saying, it seems looking for those moments is part of the game plan, so when we cant find them, we currently sit 1 win from 4 games in 2022.
It occurred to me that the Boks loose forwards do play different to ours. They almost appear to play 3 tight 6's if that makes sense. Very little flashy wide stuff but they all work very hard at the breakdown on both attack and defence. So they have 8 players all hitting rucks very hard and rushing hard on D. If I were to ask how many times they make the highlight reels it is pretty low but they are clearly a very effective unit.
They don't have an out an out jackler instead favouring size and bulk. Marx was far and away the most effective for turnovers, it seems a low centre of gravity and strength are keys for turnover penalties now and not necessarily speed to the ruck etc.
@voodoo said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Tough to win a test in SA when S Barrett is one of your best players on the night
Hey you hater, you leave Scooter alone. ?
No cards, no head high “absorb” tackles, and only gave away one penalty for an offside which looked marginal at best when he charged down that box kick.
@ACT-Crusader said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@voodoo said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Tough to win a test in SA when S Barrett is one of your best players on the night
Hey you hater, you leave Scooter alone. ?
No cards, no head high “absorb” tackles, and only gave away one penalty for an offside which looked marginal at best when he charged down that box kick.
I thought he was really good. Direct, and played with pace and power. But he's always going to be a bit limited right?
I really wish we would give Sotutu a run at 8 with Akira at 6 and any of Paps/Cane/Savea at 7.
@voodoo said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@ACT-Crusader said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@voodoo said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Tough to win a test in SA when S Barrett is one of your best players on the night
Hey you hater, you leave Scooter alone. ?
No cards, no head high “absorb” tackles, and only gave away one penalty for an offside which looked marginal at best when he charged down that box kick.
I thought he was really good. Direct, and played with pace and power. But he's always going to be a bit limited right?
I really wish we would give Sotutu a run at 8 with Akira at 6 and any of Paps/Cane/Savea at 7.
Who’s that?
Aside from the All Blacks’ ‘coaching’ and management issues, you have to wonder how much of their current plight is down to Super Rugby and their lack of exposure to the South African/NH more physical style of play. Players who were supremely dominant a couple of months ago steamrolling the Force or the Rebels or the Pacific Islands teams suddenly look like schoolboys.
Is it the wrong players in the wrong positions for test rugby? Is it differences in how the game is played at international level? Is it how the breakdown is officiated? Is it purely that New Zealand’s development program is now inferior to those in the NH and is breeding too many would-be Sevens players not built for the collisions game that international test rugby has become? Or is it all of the above?
I strongly suspect the relative isolation of NZ through COVID compounded the poor coaching choices and the mismanagement of the NZR. But instead of adapting and admitting there is a paucity of ideas at home and making necessary and radical change, the NZ authorities arrogantly dig in. In the meantime, the poor players are left to intone Gilbert Enoka’s ritual and now stale lines about ‘walking toward the pressure’ and ‘embracing the opportunity’.
Something is fundamentally broken in NZ rugby.
@chimoaus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
It occurred to me that the Boks loose forwards do play different to ours. They almost appear to play 3 tight 6's if that makes sense. Very little flashy wide stuff but they all work very hard at the breakdown on both attack and defence. So they have 8 players all hitting rucks very hard and rushing hard on D. If I were to ask how many times they make the highlight reels it is pretty low but they are clearly a very effective unit.
They don't have an out an out jackler instead favouring size and bulk. Marx was far and away the most effective for turnovers, it seems a low centre of gravity and strength are keys for turnover penalties now and not necessarily speed to the ruck etc.
That extra size does come at a cost, because when the game does speed up the Boks do fall off more tackles and there are opportunities in behind their line. We saw it last night and the Boks missed more than double the number of tackles that the ABs did and the overall. tackle count wasn’t that different between the teams.
Problem is that we turned the ball over or gave away a penalty far too often. Add in lack of territory and we didn’t capitalise.
So a cost they are willing to make and it paid off well for them last night.
Not sure if I have the stomach to read the thread today.
TBH, we were just well beaten but despite that I don't think we can single out players for bad games as everyone seemed to be trying but nothing is going our way these days. We're losing the 50/50 calls every time which means we're not applying enough consistent pressure.
One thing I will say is I know we're supposed to be in a Marx love-in at the moment, but, he doesn't support himself for a large % of the turnovers he wins. I'm unsure why he gets so much leeway? I assume if you have a reputation as a turnover winner then the refs just think you're doing legally all the time.