All Blacks v Argentina II
Well, I was fearing another shit game to fit with the one good game- two bad games pattern, but tonight was impressive across the park. Putting the score to one side, it was an 80-minute performance and not a mix of superb and shite we've seen in the recent past.
There were two key points in the game for me which stood out. Cane taking the penalty to go up 27-3 when Argentine were gaining momentum rather than go for the corner and score a try. That showed a much calmer and ruthless mindset. The second was when we were under the pump with a YC, giving away penalties and Argentina looked certain to score. Not only did we keep them out, we showed the confidence, patience and control to set up a counter-attack for an end-end try. In other games they would have either scored or we'd have screwed up the counter-attack and the doubts would have crept in.
Won't comment on technicalities (I’ll leave that to others with way more knowledge than I have) but there was so much to like about that performance. Combinations seemed to click, players stepped up with individual skill and the precision on a wet park was impressive. The forwards really got stuck in and the front row continues to impress - apart from 1-2 mistakes from Bower and Newell they impressed all game. Coles added something new when he came on and I loved his mongrel and getting in the Argentinian’s heads. Slamming Sami is the real deal, the complete package and it's hard to spot a single part of his game which isn't world-class.
The 6/7/8 combination went really, really well and caused all sorts of problems for Argentina. Ardie was the usual awesome Ardie (just how quick is the bloke?), Sam Cane had some outstanding defence and his link play was exceptional (see JB's try). He's not the player he was a year or two ago, but offers a great all round game and his captaincy tonight, considering the pressure the team was under, was bloody good. I had to really look for Frizzell as he was buried in the thick of everything as was Scooter & Sam Whitelock and perhaps their work was the key difference.
Aaron Smith was a workman-like Smith at 9 (which means pretty damn good) and his kicking game was improved and Mo'unga looked confident and relaxed from the off - the yips from last week had vanished and he had a very good game.
But the biggest ups were in the midfield where I though Havili was outstanding - nothing too flash, but his link work, kicking, defence, positioning and interplay with Ritchie & Reiko were consistently good. He seemed to ooze confidence and stability. Reiko is just getting better and better: directing traffic and defence and passing or using his pace at exactly the right time. His breakout from the 22 and the way he held the ball up for Christie to keep the movement going was sublime.
The back 3 worries me - needs lots more work and looks to be a bit disjointed at times on attack. Jordie seems to have lost his mojo a touch, but keep him there as he's rock solid in defence. Ditto Will Jordan - things don't seem to be going his way but we should stick with him as he’ll come right. I can't make my mind up about Caleb Clarke as he adds punch but just seems to lack a bit of finesse - perhaps it's time to give Sevu Reece a start. They were all pretty solid on defence.
I thought the Ref was great, let the game flow and managed the players well. He seemed almost invisible at times which is what you want to see - liked the way he used the TMO and minimised any impact on the game. And thank fuck there weren't any stupid cards from high tackles to influence the game.
All in all, a pretty complete performance compared to recent games regardless of the competition, even compared to Ellis Park. AB seemed more relaxed and actually enjoying themselves tonight and the small things went well tonight - need to keep that up. Big question is: can they?
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordan can go. Taukieaho and Savea immense.
I liked De Groot too!
Played extremely well, but still has sloppy moments. Probably got away with a couple of flops over the ruck.
@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Pumas looked like they were still in meat coma after last week’s celebratory BBQ.
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordan can go. Taukieaho and Savea immense.
I liked De Groot too!
Played extremely well, but still has sloppy moments. Probably got away with a couple of flops over the ruck.
ok but I also liked his and Sami's support work.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordan did some bloody good kick chase work.
I wouldn't be dropping him unlike some others. He was more involved this week and just looks like he's a step/ bounce away from doing that ridiculous shit we love him for.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordan did some bloody good kick chase work.
Whaaaat? He got absolutely blitzed by Ardie on one, most of the rest he jogged up and put about zero pressure on. I'm a bit shocked to see someone praise him for that!
Samisoni is unreal: the more consistently outstanding he is week after week the more absurd the decision to drop him from the Irish decider looks. De Groot and Lomax keep improving too.
Whitelock good again, and Frizzel is making the team better, he helps the balance of the loosies with Savea at 8. Cane remains a very good tackler, and suits a wet game.
Aaron Smith good.
Mounga flakey as fuck, but he's still our best option and I really think it is how he has been told to play. Our short kicking tactic will continue to cost us against better sides. It was a relative success, but we still turned the ball over heaps with those kicks, and only won a couple back. Only one was a really good kick. Fortunately the Argies would then just knock it on, and despite our casual attitude to possession we ended up with heaps of it because of their error count (a lot forced by our good defence).
Good fun game to watch in shit conditions, but I do reckon that next close game we'll still be doing dumb stuff and it'll cost us.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Pumas looked like they were still in meat coma after last week’s celebratory BBQ.
That is how you are supposed to slap Nic White
@reprobate Argentina had a shitter, they played worse than Ireland in the first test.
Still, was nice to see the solid set piece and the distinct lack of tits for hands.
I don't think the kicking game is as bad as the appalling chasing game makes it look.
@Nevorian said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Pumas looked like they were still in meat coma after last week’s celebratory BBQ.
That is how you are supposed to slap Nic White
I'd rather not imagine that slab of meat with a hairy slug on it..
@Victor-Meldrew I'd drop both wingers, but there's not really anyone to replace Clarke - he's just a bit rough imo, falls off tackles far too easily for a big bloke and half the time tackles himself before trying to bump someone off. He's improving though.
I think Reece has oodles more to offer than Jordan at the moment. Intensity and commitment would be a good start.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Did anyone else see Matera shove Coles when they were shaking hands? Coles must of upset him pretty bad for him to do that.
Probably best of mates off the field
@Nevorian said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Did anyone else see Matera shove Coles when they were shaking hands? Coles must of upset him pretty bad for him to do that.
Probably best of mates off the field
Yeah when they had the shoving match on the field it just looked like Matera was having a laugh.
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Victor-Meldrew I'd drop both wingers, but there's not really anyone to replace Clarke - he's just a bit rough imo, falls off tackles far too easily for a big bloke and half the time tackles himself before trying to bump someone off. He's improving though.
I think Reece has oodles more to offer than Jordan at the moment. Intensity and commitment would be a good start.
Agree on Caleb. I'd stick with him in the 23 but give Reece a start.
I'd also stick with Will Jordan for now. I think it's just that things are going his way. Some of his defensive work is top-notch
@Bones Jordan's a fullback, Jordie's a fullback - and neither of them are a patch on Reece on the wing.
We just need to make a decision instead of trying to squeeze them both onto the field.
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones Jordan's a fullback, Jordie's a fullback - and neither of them are a patch on Reece on the wing.
We just need to make a decision instead of trying to squeeze them both onto the field.
Jordie to 12, easy. He can at least hit the line hard, and rieko and him seen to operate very well together
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate Argentina had a shitter, they played worse than Ireland in the first test.
Cause and effect had nothing to do with it huh?
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate Argentina had a shitter, they played worse than Ireland in the first test.
Cause and effect had nothing to do with it huh?
our forwards got them on the back foot and they looked ordinary when they couldn't pressure us.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate Argentina had a shitter, they played worse than Ireland in the first test.
Cause and effect had nothing to do with it huh?
Imo is like most things, complex. Argy played poorly, ABs played better, and that feeds of each other, amplifying both things. And one thing is still true, give the ABs the space and they will rip you apart. It's just so rare for top teams to do that anymore
@Machpants said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate Argentina had a shitter, they played worse than Ireland in the first test.
Cause and effect had nothing to do with it huh?
Imo is like most things, complex. Argy played poorly, ABs played better, and that feeds of each other, amplifying both things. And one thing is still true, give the ABs the space and they will rip you apart. It's just so rare for top teams to do that anymore
it wasn't just space though was it, but also a great deal with forwards driving up the middle, supporting each other, and not giving an inch.
People just need to keep in mind that Argentina didn't play much rugby last week either. They were just kept in it by poor discipline and some weird refereeing. A lucky bounce and then some panic cemented it.
The turnaround this week was the All Blacks accuracy and better refereeing.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Machpants said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate Argentina had a shitter, they played worse than Ireland in the first test.
Cause and effect had nothing to do with it huh?
Imo is like most things, complex. Argy played poorly, ABs played better, and that feeds of each other, amplifying both things. And one thing is still true, give the ABs the space and they will rip you apart. It's just so rare for top teams to do that anymore
it wasn't just space though was it, but also a great deal with forwards driving up the middle, supporting each other, and not giving an inch.
Passes to players and players catching the frikken ball!
@Machpants said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones Jordan's a fullback, Jordie's a fullback - and neither of them are a patch on Reece on the wing.
We just need to make a decision instead of trying to squeeze them both onto the field.Jordie to 12, easy. He can at least hit the line hard, and rieko and him seen to operate very well together
I think this is the move to make. Jordie can do the little chip kicks as good if not better than Havili anyway. There is nothing Havili does that Jordie can't do in my opinion.
I want to see Will Jordan getting the ball with the field in front of him and picking out fatties to run at.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate Argentina had a shitter, they played worse than Ireland in the first test.
Cause and effect had nothing to do with it huh?
I'm sure we could have put in a performance as seen in most other tests and at least made them look ok.
@Steve said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Machpants said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones Jordan's a fullback, Jordie's a fullback - and neither of them are a patch on Reece on the wing.
We just need to make a decision instead of trying to squeeze them both onto the field.Jordie to 12, easy. He can at least hit the line hard, and rieko and him seen to operate very well together
I think this is the move to make. Jordie can do the little chip kicks as good if not better than Havili anyway. There is nothing Havili does that Jordie can't do in my opinion.
I want to see Will Jordan getting the ball with the field in front of him and picking out fatties to run at.
I suspect DH links a little quicker and is a more intuitive player but yes Jordie's bulk would be handy.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I think it's just that things are going his way.
The harder you work, the luckier you get.
Things aren't going to go his way if he keeps halfheartedly chasing kicks and overrunning players with the ball because he's too lazy to get aligned properly.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I'm still not completely sold on Lomax, but the alternatives are even worse (and old). He isn't very effective taking the ball into contact and is far too upright.
Ofa? But Lomax for me supplants Angus T.
@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I'm still not completely sold on Lomax, but the alternatives are even worse (and old). He isn't very effective taking the ball into contact and is far too upright.
Ofa? But Lomax for me supplants Angus T.
Lomax doesn’t do as many dumb things as Ofa. Ofa replaces Angus
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Samisoni is unreal: the more consistently outstanding he is week after week the more absurd the decision to drop him from the Irish decider looks. De Groot and Lomax keep improving too.
Whitelock good again, and Frizzel is making the team better, he helps the balance of the loosies with Savea at 8. Cane remains a very good tackler, and suits a wet game.
Aaron Smith good.
Mounga flakey as fuck, but he's still our best option and I really think it is how he has been told to play. Our short kicking tactic will continue to cost us against better sides. It was a relative success, but we still turned the ball over heaps with those kicks, and only won a couple back. Only one was a really good kick. Fortunately the Argies would then just knock it on, and despite our casual attitude to possession we ended up with heaps of it because of their error count (a lot forced by our good defence).Good fun game to watch in shit conditions, but I do reckon that next close game we'll still be doing dumb stuff and it'll cost us.
Point is that although short kicks didn’t pay off immediately they forced Pumas to alter defence shape, creating more room. Much smarter than last week.
@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I'm still not completely sold on Lomax, but the alternatives are even worse (and old). He isn't very effective taking the ball into contact and is far too upright.
Ofa?
Ofa is as dumb as a box of rocks and has been given untold chances.
He has to prove he can cut out the stupid plays and show a high workrate.
@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I'm still not completely sold on Lomax, but the alternatives are even worse (and old). He isn't very effective taking the ball into contact and is far too upright.
Ofa?
Ofa is as dumb as a box of rocks and has been given untold chances.
He has to prove he can cut out the stupid plays and show a high workrate.
It’s not often I agree with you. Here’s one.
@Tordah said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Best 80 mins from Codie Taylor since 2021
Sorry to burst a bubble, but had Georgian ref been on the field there were at least two of Sami’s throws he could have blown for same thing as Codie’s last throw. Team thing.