Tragic Viewing
Well that was rather tragic viewing. Things that we've known for a while were there for all to see tonight. Having 3 opensides out there was a disaster even before Savea was forced off. They're far too passive playing together on defence and a lack of muscle in there was evident as the Irish virtually walked up the field on attack.
Sam Cane wasn't great out there and despite him working hard, a lot of his work was ineffective, but was still a hell of a lot more than what Papali'i produced. He was anonymous all match and certainly isn't a starting test 6 on that evidence.
Can't say I really noticed a lot of Ardie out there, certainly not on defence anyway. He made the odd ineffective carry. It's a broken record, but most of us can see that he's perfect foil for the bench. Don't think we need to see Sowakula for the next test. He has hands like feet and not much of a rugby brain in general. He reminds me of Peter Saili with his hands, difference is, is that Saili never got close to a test jersey and rightly so.
Surely Sotutu comes in for the next test and hopefully Ioane on the side of the scrum. we need some power out there.
Don't know why Codie Taylor seems to have a mortgage on the 2 jersey. He's been on a steady decline for a while yet he seems to still be one of the first names of the teamsheet! Taukei'aho is well overdue to get his time as a starter now. Taylor, along with Tu'ungafasi, missed tackles and was extremely poor on the carry. Something Taukei'aho does very well with ball in hand is fight for every metre with his low centre of gravity and get you front foot ball, something that we did not get at all tonight as we had no strong ball carriers on for the first 55 minutes.
No disrespect to George Bower, he was the most effective one out there along with Barrett and it's frustrating when we have ones sitting either on the bench or in the stands. Tu'ungafasi had a poor night and through no fault of his own, had to stay out there all game. He's another whose best work comes from the bench which we'll most likely see once Laulala returns.
Is Brodie Retallick's time up? I think we all know that he isn't the player he once was, but he was outshone by Scott Barrett tonight and with Sam Whitelock to return, is it time to put Retallick to the bench or even start to bring Tupou Va'ai into the 23? It pains me to say it as I love what Retallick has done for the black jersey, but instead of bullying opposition, he's starting to get bullied by opposition tight 5s. He's also not getting any younger so maybe it's time to slowly move him on? (I know we won't). His body had taken a battering pre covid, and he hasn't come back the same after returning from Japan 6 kg lighter.
Tupaea and Fai'anganuku had nights to forget, especially Big Leicester. He looked lost out there, made a crucial error in early in the 2nd half, and then made a horrible misread on defence in the lead up to the Irish try before thankfully getting dragged, and with Jordan back and Possibly Clarke, I doubt we'll see him back next week.
Another key battle we lost out there was the aerial battle. Barrett and Smith, once our ball went static (and quite often too), were putting the ball too far, allowing their back 3 to return the ball with no pressure and allowing the Ireland forwards to get back to set up their attack, as well as not giving our wingers a chance to compete more often than not, where as the former Blues reserve halfback during the dark old days Gibson-Park was on point with his kicking from the base, where the Irish competed, and won almost everything in the air. He certainly redeemed himself after having an indifferent game last week .
Mass changes are certainly needed that's for sure after that debacle, I'm not holding my breath as they have proven that they are reluctant to make changes so I'm only expecting there to be about 2 changes max and I'm not on the anti-foster brigade, but I'm getting very close to joining as we seem to be going backwards at a rate of knots.
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
That would make him a A grade fluffybunny.
I hope he said it.
He could have said he was better than Daniel Braid and Sam Harding if he’d been quick witted enough
@MN5 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
That would make him a A grade fluffybunny.
I hope he said it.
He could have said he was better than Daniel Braid and Sam Harding if he’d been quick witted enough
Irish (?) Prop after the AB scrum had been shunted back 5m: "How's that for scrumming you dirty fluffybunny"
Colin Meads: "Fucking impressive, but when you pull your head out of your arse, you'll see we just scored.
(Need some humour after that game)
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@stodders Barnes is the ref for the 3rd test.
All set up for his redemption? ?
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@stodders Barnes is the ref for the 3rd test.
All set up for his redemption? ?
He's actually bloody good.
@MiketheSnow First event (green): Ofa's yellow card. Second event (orange): Angus' red card. Both TH props. Thought they needed uncontested scrums because they forgot Bower could have been moved to TH. Because they went for uncontested scrums, they needed to lose another player (they chose Ardie). So off were Ofa, Angus and Ardie = 12 players.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Didn’t the scrums go uncontested when Ross came on and Ardie went off?
Again, I am referring to 2nd half after the cards. Ofa was a penalty magnet who was struggling to be onside but they kept him on and subbed Bower.
Wouldn’t that still result in uncontested scrums because both 3s were off?
Sorry my head is spinning trying to work out what the rules are and what actually happened in the game. Am I completely imagining the scrum going uncontested for a short period before ofa came back on?
@pukunui said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Didn’t the scrums go uncontested when Ross came on and Ardie went off?
Again, I am referring to 2nd half after the cards. Ofa was a penalty magnet who was struggling to be onside but they kept him on and subbed Bower.
Wouldn’t that still result in uncontested scrums because both 3s were off?
Sorry my head is spinning trying to work out what the rules are and what actually happened in the game. Am I completely imagining the scrum going uncontested for a short period before ofa came back on?
Yeah I thought you had to nominate your front row replacements before the game. So only works if Bower was dedicated a th replacement? Or am I talking out of my arse.
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Didn’t the scrums go uncontested when Ross came on and Ardie went off?
Again, I am referring to 2nd half after the cards. Ofa was a penalty magnet who was struggling to be onside but they kept him on and subbed Bower.
Wouldn’t that still result in uncontested scrums because both 3s were off?
Sorry my head is spinning trying to work out what the rules are and what actually happened in the game. Am I completely imagining the scrum going uncontested for a short period before ofa came back on?Yeah I thought you had to nominate your front row replacements before the game. So only works if Bower was dedicated a th replacement? Or am I talking out of my arse.
That, at least, used to be the way it worked.
If you have two players off, and they’ll force you to lose another, there is something wrong with the laws.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@stodders Barnes is the ref for the 3rd test.
All set up for his redemption? ?
He's actually bloody good.
I agree. Some may not.
@kev said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Ireland has done us a favour.
Test rugby has always been about the team that makes the less mistakes wins. As a person who experienced test rugby in the 70s (can't remember much to be honest), the 80s, 90s up to now, the rugby that the ABs play now doesn't feel like test rugby. There is a lack of territorial awareness which means a lack of pragmatic kicking, they invite chaos near their line which more often than not has negative results, etc, etc.
It is hard to explain but in the Foster era, they give it up too easily.We have no desire to play the territory game
Because our 10 has a shit territory game.
Richie will be better next time.
Wasn't that what was said last time?
He's great at SR level, good when the AB's are in charge, has skills to burn but just doesn't seem able to take the final step.
I thought he was good. Challenged the line, through a great cut out pass to PGS who dropped it…. What did you think he did wrong?
Really? The one time I saw him challenge the line he got smacked by a prop, and that cut out pass to PGS was a hail Mary that ended up at PGS's knees, yeah he should have caught it but it's not like he was going anywhere if he did, it wasn't some amazing play it was just more of the mindless bullshit served up by the ABs tonight.
Mo'unga looked lost when he came on, there were periods of play where the ball was passed to the first receiver and most of the time it was not Mo'unga - what the hell was he doing? As the 10 he should he calling for the ball and trying to direct play.
But, as I mentioned in my earlier post, I don't think our 10s are the problem. Mo'unga played like someone who had absolutely no idea what the gameplan was. Just so different to how he players under Razor where he is deliberate in what he is trying to achieve.
It's crystal clear that this coaching group is way out of their depth at test level (hell SR level was too much for them). We're going to see more of this crap until after the RWC when finally we'll get a new coaching group, but by then I wonder who is actually going to be available?
@Stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@MiketheSnow First event (green): Ofa's yellow card. Second event (orange): Angus' red card. Both TH props. Thought they needed uncontested scrums because they forgot Bower could have been moved to TH. Because they went for uncontested scrums, they needed to lose another player (they chose Ardie). So off were Ofa, Angus and Ardie = 12 players.
Did Ross come on when Ardie went off?
I think you have nailed it - these guys go out looking for opportunities based on what is presented.
The team doesn’t appear to be going out with a plan of how to put the opposition under pressure, as opposed to reacting to the opportunities provided by the opposition.
We need a real attacking plan and coach.
We will not win the WC with Mooar there.
We’ll likely not win with our defense either… even if our attack turned around.
@pukunui said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@MiketheSnow First event (green): Ofa's yellow card. Second event (orange): Angus' red card. Both TH props. Thought they needed uncontested scrums because they forgot Bower could have been moved to TH. Because they went for uncontested scrums, they needed to lose another player (they chose Ardie). So off were Ofa, Angus and Ardie = 12 players.
Did Ross come on when Ardie went off?
Yes
@pukunui Ahh, yes, of course. 
I'm still wondering where that table comes from though. Is it even correct?
I may or may not check the Laws.
Well that was a disgrace wasn't it?
Ofa is now the benchmark for the worst game it's possible to have for the ABs
But seriously the forward pack can take a collective L tonight, beaten everywhere
I said just after selection we would battle at the lineout. And guess what? The guys picked did their best but the team picked was rubbish
Papalii sucked. Completely invisible. Savea was useless but shit I still wish we had him over Dalton
Seriously can we talk about how shit Jordie Barrett is playing? He was poor last week, he was terrible today.
Those calling for Mounga didn't watch last week or this week. That boy is not a test player. When it's tight watch him run down a blind alley and probably turn it over.
The all Blacks are awful right now. And I blame the coaching and selection more than anything
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Papalii sucked. Completely invisible.
How much of that was due to the RC and Ardie leaving the field do you think?
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@MiketheSnow First event (green): Ofa's yellow card. Second event (orange): Angus' red card. Both TH props. Thought they needed uncontested scrums because they forgot Bower could have been moved to TH. Because they went for uncontested scrums, they needed to lose another player (they chose Ardie). So off were Ofa, Angus and Ardie = 12 players.
Did Ross come on when Ardie went off?
Yes
So it was a fuck up by the officials to allow Ross on according to that table. Should have just been Ardie (or whoever) off and ABs down to 12 until the yellow ended.
But also a big fuck up by the AB management trying to do a pointless swap of Ross and Ardie which still lead to uncontested scrums and Ardie missing the rest of the game.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@kev said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Ireland has done us a favour.
Test rugby has always been about the team that makes the less mistakes wins. As a person who experienced test rugby in the 70s (can't remember much to be honest), the 80s, 90s up to now, the rugby that the ABs play now doesn't feel like test rugby. There is a lack of territorial awareness which means a lack of pragmatic kicking, they invite chaos near their line which more often than not has negative results, etc, etc.
It is hard to explain but in the Foster era, they give it up too easily.We have no desire to play the territory game
Because our 10 has a shit territory game.
Richie will be better next time.
Wasn't that what was said last time?
He's great at SR level, good when the AB's are in charge, has skills to burn but just doesn't seem able to take the final step.
I thought he was good. Challenged the line, through a great cut out pass to PGS who dropped it…. What did you think he did wrong?
Really? The one time I saw him challenge the line he got smacked by a prop, and that cut out pass to PGS was a hail Mary that ended up at PGS's knees, yeah he should have caught it but it's not like he was going anywhere if he did, it wasn't some amazing play it was just more of the mindless bullshit served up by the ABs tonight.
Mo'unga looked lost when he came on, there were periods of play where the ball was passed to the first receiver and most of the time it was not Mo'unga - what the hell was he doing? As the 10 he should he calling for the ball and trying to direct play.
But, as I mentioned in my earlier post, I don't think our 10s are the problem. Mo'unga played like someone who had absolutely no idea what the gameplan was. Just so different to how he players under Razor where he is deliberate in what he is trying to achieve.
It's crystal clear that this coaching group is way out of their depth at test level (hell SR level was too much for them). We're going to see more of this crap until after the RWC when finally we'll get a new coaching group, but by then I wonder who is actually going to be available?
Yep. Been saying that since day dot. Its not the 10s. Its the tactics and structure or lack thereof. Just look at the Ireland test last year. Every single play in the first half was a fucking bomb. Foster has no business being AB coach and it shows.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Papalii sucked. Completely invisible.
How much of that was due to the RC and Ardie leaving the field do you think?
He did nothing before that for all his chat.
No impact at all. The locks.and loose forwards got smoked today.
Yes not helped by the yellow cards
What really fucks me off is even the idiots here would have known where Ireland was going to come at us and we had nothing for it.
In fact we looked less organised than last week. We played cute with the pack.
And we got smoked
Some of that is on individuals. Like Ofa. But Pur pack set up whack.
We’ll that was a strange game, hard to get any flow with the cards and with the Irish playing so well.
I’m going to buck the trend here and say it’s far too early to panic. This AB team thrashed this same Irish team a week ago. You don’t go from being an excellent team to a poor one in one week. You can however put in a bad performance as we saw.
Irish attack was very good, the face balls and putting runners into gaps or aimed at weak shoulders was outstanding. Also, the AB’s spent most of the game with either 13 or 14 men.
There might be a few changes next week, I don’t think the loose trio experiment had a chance to bear fruit but if we can get either Whitelock back or Va’ai, even Patty at lock to free up Barrett back at 6. Jordan for Fainga’anuku, Taukei’aho for Taylor, Akira for PGS and Clarke off the bench.
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Are NZ playing Wales and Scotland in Nov? May as well knock those unbeaten records out whilst Foster is at the helm.
We’ve beaten you
Last century
@chimoaus said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
A loss we needed to have to build and learn for the WC?
We have had so many of those recently I am wondering if this team and its coaches have learning difficulties.
@Machpants
He won't resign, why would he?
His incompetence isn't limited to his coaching.
Plus the same morons who picked him would rather the ABs lose than have to take responsibility for their actions. From day one the majority of people aware of the situation around the world and especially in NZ knew it was a bad decision.
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Machpants
He won't resign, why would he?
His incompetence isn't limited to his coaching.Plus the same morons who picked him would rather the ABs lose than have to take responsibility for their actions. From day one the majority of people aware of the situation around the world and especially in NZ knew it was a bad decision.
Sounds like a certain other blond clown over here in UK who is blind and wouldnt resign. Word wasnt even in the vocabulary
@Victor-Meldrew yup and it is a mystery, some of his grubbers are great but most of his kicks are...Russian roulette material..
One last thing, the ABs are the reverse Black Caps. Win or lose the opposition fans and "neutrals" will dislike them. There is nothing that will change that. Black Caps were the plucky losers who came good, ABs were a dominant team that have fallen off. Will take another 100 years of a decent BCs and mediocre ABs before people start calling the BCs cheats and ABs gentlemen regardless.
Point being that it doesn't matter if you are good losers. Only winners are grinners.
@pukunui said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@MiketheSnow First event (green): Ofa's yellow card. Second event (orange): Angus' red card. Both TH props. Thought they needed uncontested scrums because they forgot Bower could have been moved to TH. Because they went for uncontested scrums, they needed to lose another player (they chose Ardie). So off were Ofa, Angus and Ardie = 12 players.
Did Ross come on when Ardie went off?
Yes
So it was a fuck up by the officials to allow Ross on according to that table. Should have just been Ardie (or whoever) off and ABs down to 12 until the yellow ended.
But also a big fuck up by the AB management trying to do a pointless swap of Ross and Ardie which still lead to uncontested scrums and Ardie missing the rest of the game.
Quoting myself
Found this that explains it all a bit better.
link
Summary:
Ross on, Ardie off because they had a front rower, even if he couldn’t play that side. Therefore uncontested.
Refs messed up by not taking an extra AB off until ofa came back and again by not letting Ardie back on. Dalton should have been the one to stay off because he was replaced by Angus.