Same old, same old
The thing which frustrates me is this is the same-old, same-old.
The problems we saw from 2017 onward are still there and it shows against a team which can out-muscle and out-discipline us. The strategy doesn't seem to have changed much either - go down the blind, spin it into the midfield where the likes of BB can exploit the gaps and fast counter attacks. That and occasional shit kicks and poor discipline.
There just doesn't seem to be a Plan B or a default style of play when the main game plan isn't working and there's a need to retain possession and/or pressure the opposition into making mistakes. That's not helped by both individual stupidity and a collective sense of panic. We had this ability in spades until 2016 and I don't think it's down to individual players.
A few years ago, we played Argentina and were in exactly the same place. The team kept calm, tightened the play up, played for position and had confidence in their ability to make something happen. Sure enough we pilfered a ball (a Nonu hit IIRC) and launched a counter attack. Try. Change in tempo and confidence. Game over
Now there's a lack of composure which almost seems to have become part of the on-field culture which is worrying. It breeds nervousness and mistakes in the players which means we drop passes or make the wrong decision at key points in the game (e.g. BBBR in RWC2019 semi)
I don't blame Foster for all of this as he's inherited a lot of the problems and you have to give him credit for some good stuff like making the lineout drive a potent weapon and actually trying to bring some continuity to team selection. But he really needs to have a good, hard look at his tactics, his team plan/style of play development and, above all, get the players heads right, both individually and collectively.
And I can't fault Cane either for his on-field attitude. Sure, he's still learning and some of his decisions aren't good, but he's giving 120% and is at least focussing on controlling the team and the game. Do Senior players like Sam Whitelock, Nugget and Beauden Barrett need to step up and get more involved both on and off the field?
I don't think there's any need to panic as it's early days, but to keep Joe Public on-side, Foster and co. really should communicate what they see as the current problems and what they are doing to address them. Otherwise it's going to be another season or two of the same old headless chicken rugby
@chimoaus I wouldn’t even say I’m a supporter. Just think they are trying things and still haven’t got it right.
@Derpus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Gunner meh. The message is clear as day. Contact with the head isnt on and they dont give a fuck why.
What are the NFL payouts at? 700m USD? Tell the flog not to headbutt fluffybunnies instead.
Huh?
@MiketheSnow said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Still at least you know how it feels to be #WelshForADay
We blame Deans. You blame Pivac.
@kev said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus I wouldn’t even say I’m a supporter. Just think they are trying things and still haven’t got it right.
Yep, the problem is even blind Freddy can see they haven't got it right, the question is how long you wait. I have no doubt Foster will take us through 2021 and he will be judged on those performances, so for his sake he better fix this sinking ship quick.
In boxing they say styles make fights. The abs ran into a style that is just super awkward to play against.
Since at least 2012 the All Blacks have been a pain in the ass to play against cause you just know that they would score at least 2 tries out of fucken nothing, normally from turnover or an arsey kick. Today the pumas made almost no errors that the all blacks could capitalize on. The Pumas, unlike aus in the first three bled tests, really managed to put pressure on the All Black ruck ball.
I also felt that in the middle 40 the pumas showed more energy around the park. They were better in the ruck and when a ball fell free they made the 50-50 balls 80-20 to them.
The All Blacks have a good line out and maul, but their scrum looks like a weakness. They have a number of good second channel runners (Ardie, Sotutu, Coles) but needed Tuipoluto and the props to do more in close. Defence is fine, but never looked like getting turnovers. Kicking game is not the strength it has been (I thought the Puma full back was shakie and should have been tested more). Discipline was poor and dumb, summed up by Coles getting that penalty reversed after Gardner just warned both teams about that shit.
Also to add, it's not clear who the superstars additions are going to be in this WC cycle. Clarke was spectacular on debut, but nothing yet since. Sotutu looks very promising and Jordan was great in SRA. Ideally you'd want a couple more stepping up to replace B Smith, SBW and Read already gone and A Smith, Whitelock, Moody, B Barret, Coles and maybe Retallick not looking likely they for 2023.
@Unite said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Are there any decent journalists that are going to ask some pointed questions of these guys at the next few press conferences?
Foster just deflects to congratulating the other team, saying how well they played etc. It wasnt his fault, it was just the other team played better. It is very hard to win when the other teams just keep playing so well....
@chimoaus yeah but need someone that says “you haven’t answered my question” and then restates it...
@kev I tend to agree. But the danger is losing confidence as we try to right some wrongs and adjust to changes.
Confidence or lack of it can be contagious and something the coaches and playing group need to arrest quickly.
@voodoo said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
So I ended up not watching this game. A quick scroll through this thread seems to indicate that it didn't go so well?
Now I have to decide whether to put myself through the torture of watching the replay.
Don't do it. I only watched the first 25 minutes before heading out. The recording got flushed
@Nevorian head to head was 12 dollars, 13+ must have been upwards of $16?
Argentina half-time/full-time would have been spicy too.
Fuck.
@Paekakboyz said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@voodoo what @canefan said. Its bad bro, real bad. I watched the whole thing and wish I hadn't.
Imagine doing it surrounded by Wallabies supporters.
@antipodean said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Paekakboyz said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@voodoo what @canefan said. Its bad bro, real bad. I watched the whole thing and wish I hadn't.
Imagine doing it surrounded by Wallabies supporters.
Thats the time to sit quietly sipping your beer watching the fly walk up the wall
@Kirwan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
People were complaining about mythical Bok and England concerns, but this was what we were worried about. A physical side making few mistakes.
Yes mate exactly what I was talking about that got slammed by a few people on here
No progression more losses coming m.
@NTA said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA As a neutral are we overreacting or were we really that shit?
<SNIP>
EDIT: I mean in terms of this being rugby. You have to accept losses. Just makes it hard for you bastards you only lose occasionally.Argentina won the way you always beat the All Blacks: minimise your errors, make your tackles, and don't take any shit at set piece.
<SNIP>
That has been the AB game plan since Henry / McCaw left: defend, counterattack, and (occasionally) pull off your skills and fitness, complemented occasionally by the odd piece of streaky bullshit. And I'm not saying those skills and fitness aren't great, because the winning record over the last decade speaks for itself.
<SNIP>
The most burning example of this was Caleb Clarke: breaks 8 tackles on his way to setting up a try in Auckland, but was well looked after tonight. Simple game, really.
The first and last lines sum it up for me - I think we have been shit, we've just been lucky to have a few individuals like Caleb Clarke turn that shitness into a victory anyway.
Where I do disagree with you is in the Henry/McCaw era - we went into games with a clear game plan to put the opposition under pressure and played high percentage football to build that pressure. The opposition had to play at least above average to have a chance to beat Henry and McCaws AB's because they knew what their game plan was and knew what parts of their game they could use to suck up pressure/relieve pressure/create opportunities if that game plan wasn't delivering an outright advantage. While I won't dispute defence/counterattack/skills sometimes got us over the line, it depended on the opposition, how to exploit that teams weaknesses and how well we were playing, particularly towards the end of competitions/tours. And by and large, this continued in the Hansen/Read era although injuries to Read certainly disrupted this.
Fast forward to 2020 and Fozzies AB's versus Aussie last week. The game plan appeared to be "just throw it around and hopefully something works", when it didn't and we lost a player we briefly knuckled down to what we knew worked while down a player before coming out in the second half with no real plan again. Against Argentina we substituted no real plan for no real plan and terrible execution of the basics. While Argentina made their tackles and minimised their errors, the AB's looked directionless - how many times did we make errors under almost no pressure?
Sotutu's attempted pass to DMac in the last 10 minutes summed up the game - brilliant play and pass by Sotutu to create an opening but DMac didn't seem to be aware that it could have been an opportunity. Maybe I'm being harsh... But we are finding ways to stifle anything creative by just being shit.
@Chris said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Kirwan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
People were complaining about mythical Bok and England concerns, but this was what we were worried about. A physical side making few mistakes.
Yes mate exactly what I was talking about that got slammed by a few people on here
No progression more losses coming m.
I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that only Cane and Whitelock would currently be selected in a combined AB/Bok pack. Whitelock may not even make it tbh.
That unfortunately is the reality of where our forwards are atm. We simply aren't world class up front anymore.
First up Ref was good I thought. Matera was inspired. Ledesma managed to keep error rate super low and disciplined. D was relentless and very impressive way past 70 minutes in and I’m happy for the Los Pumas to finally get a meaningful return against ABs especially after all their lockdown efforts as seen in clips. Crazy motivational stuff with very little actual training field time to work with. Their urgency and focus as a result was just a different level and rough for any team to be on the receiving end of. The thought of 4am beer flowing throughout Argentina has me smiling. Similar passion to RWC19 Uruguay win v Fiji against all odds
This should make me feel better:
But it doesn't.
Already thinking about how to get better? How to get one back?
That horse has bolted man. You were there at Soldier field, how the fuck do you and the 6 other members who were also there not have that in your mind?
Get one back against Argentina? When did we become France?
What the fuck are you guys doing?
@akan004 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Chris said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Kirwan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
People were complaining about mythical Bok and England concerns, but this was what we were worried about. A physical side making few mistakes.
Yes mate exactly what I was talking about that got slammed by a few people on here
No progression more losses coming m.I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that only Cane and Whitelock would currently be selected in a combined AB/Bok pack. Whitelock may not even make it tbh.
That unfortunately is the reality of where our forwards are atm. We simply aren't world class up front anymore.
If all our locks are fit and available I wouldnt select Whitelock for the Boks. He is still a very good player, but isn't consistent enough anymore and doesn't bring the physicality that the SA foursome brings. It's more being different than better to be honest. Seeing that all four plus PSTD are injured/unavailable right now he would make it easily of course.
Coles, Moody, Savea, Cane and Sotutu would be handy. Savea or Cane may start, but I am happy to have Kolisi as a pure Captain over Cane based on today's performance.
@akan004 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Have to ask the question if SRA is actually good for us. Yes our players look like a million bucks in it but they are generally up against passive defences and the physicality is a big step down from what we experienced today. Maybe not playing the saffers and Argies at SR isn't great prep for Test Rugby.
Or it could just be possibly the biggest off day we have had in decades.
I thought that SRA was physically intense, but a little soft tactically. Especially in the early rounds you'd see team try drop goals just of the sake of it, silly plays where the nine would join the maul as ball carrier, not kicking at goal and building an innings etc.
Also thought discipline was poor with a lot niggle and bullshit off the ball.
From a million miles away it just felt more like trials than real competitive games. Nothing wrong with the intensity, but not enough desperation to win at all costs.
@gt12 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
This might make me feel better,
But it doesn't. One sentence jumps out, "this loss is going to hurt".
How about the fucking loss last week you fucking bunch of social media abusing toolboxes?
I am a bit over their social media abuse also. They should have sent the interviewer over to the argies sheds to get some real insight. And enough of ousting the trick shots on instagram etc show us some you mean business type stuff
SRA isn't the problem, it's picking guys who were out of form, neglecting guys who were in form, playing them out of position, and overall shit coaching. The same players under a better coach would be much more cohesive and disciplined, just look at SA going from record defeat to RWC in 2 years (albeit still losing to the ABs in the process)
@Victor-Meldrew said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
The thing which frustrates me is this is the same-old, same-old.
The problems we saw from 2017 onward are still there and it shows against a team which can out-muscle and out-discipline us. The strategy doesn't seem to have changed much either - go down the blind, spin it into the midfield where the likes of BB can exploit the gaps and fast counter attacks. That and occasional shit kicks and poor discipline.
Bullshit - the problem is that we don't try to build pressure on the opposition before running the ball. Seeing a gap early and exploiting it is a fantastic skill but running into it only to get smashed by the opposition and turnover the ball multiple times SHOULDN'T be part of the game plan.
I don't blame Foster for all of this as he's inherited a lot of the problems and you have to give him credit for some good stuff like making the lineout drive a potent weapon and actually trying to bring some continuity to team selection. But he really needs to have a good, hard look at his tactics, his team plan/style of play development and, above all, get the players heads right, both individually and collectively.
And I can't fault Cane either for his on-field attitude. Sure, he's still learning and some of his decisions aren't good, but he's giving 120% and is at least focussing on controlling the team and the game. Do Senior players like Sam Whitelock, Nugget and Beauden Barrett need to step up and get more involved both on and off the field?
I blame Foster and his coaching team - we have brilliant individuals that don't play well as a team and seem to have lost a lot of confidence in the space of a few weeks. Playing people out of position just compounds that. Our handling errors and lack of awareness during the game (Whitelock offloading to Lomax where Lomax just watches the ball go past him as an example) makes me question what the players are doing during training because they don't seem that familiar with how each other plays in the pitch.
I'm unsure Cane and Ardie can play well as a unit - I assume Foster subbed Frizell because of discipline warnings rather than Ardie as Frizell/Sotutu played well together versus Australia while I wouldn't have even noticed Ardie on the pitch if it wasn't for a late turnover.
And Ardie leads on to the real issue in the team - our mix of experience. Our senior players put in their shifts and generally play very well (Whitelock/Nugget/Moody/Coles/Beauden/Cane) but its the guys that are the next step down and have 20+ tests experience that are really struggling.
Jordie had a poor game, ALB was pretty anonymous, Goodhue did enough to be an average 12 today, Mo'unga was ordinary today, Ardie was ordinary, Tuipulotu was anonymous. And the majority of their subs don't look much better - they generally turn in average at best performances. Reiko's performances starting or off the bench are error ridden. Taylor is likely as good as Coles. Add in TJs performance last week and it looks awful.
As our senior guys start hanging up their boots, what will the next generation look like? At the moment it looks like we need a major shift to younger players because unless things improve, we will end up with a glut of journeymen.
Enough ranting....
@akan004 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that only Cane and Whitelock would currently be selected in a combined AB/Bok pack. Whitelock may not even make it tbh.
That unfortunately is the reality of where our forwards are atm. We simply aren't world class up front anymore.
Who would you take Cane over in the Bok pack?
@PecoTrain based on week in week out performance I'd take him over Kolisi (and definitely over any bench option we have atm).
I am huge fan of Kolisi, but between injuries and the role he plays for SA, we don't see his best play often enough.
As a captain though, I am more than happy to Kolisi on and off the pitch.
I actually think Sotutu and Akira could be world-class forwards given the opportunity. Savea and Cane are in consideration at 7.
Coles is a very handy hooker when he controls himself. Moody is decent. I kind of feel Laulala is not quite where he was or could have been, Ofa is a ticket in waiting.
At lock yes we aren't in a golden era. Perhaps we relied on BBR too much over the years and Whitelock has been run into the ground. Patty T has to be managed like a thoroughbred (even if he doesn't look or play like one).
But we have kept our powder dry! There are some explosive hardworking 6s back in NZ. And one hybrid 6/7 who would have offered something a little different.
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I would love to hear what BB really thinks of Foster and what has happened the last few years. I have a sneaking suspicion behind closed doors he thinks foster is a fluffybunny. This no doubt creeps into the culture of players etc and may help explain why he has just been off for some time.
Huh? He's only ever played with Foster as a coach hasn't he?
Wow this is one of those tough games to explain. Argies were just better , they defended better, won more turnovers, were more physical, more prepared and just got under our skin. You can quiblle about selections but this team was good enough and experienced enough to do better. I am not really sure that any changes would have led to us winning the game, there were mental errors leading to key moments right across the park. Forwards were out muscled and the backs failed to string anything together. The lack of execution and preparation has to be at Foster's feet but we got subpar performance from many numbers on the field. I don't think there can be too many changes for the next game, 2 or 3 at max. It feels like in 5 games we built up slowly, hit a peak and have then fallen off a cliff. In hindsight, perhaps we needed to keep building last week with minimal changes.
@akan004 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Chris said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Kirwan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
People were complaining about mythical Bok and England concerns, but this was what we were worried about. A physical side making few mistakes.
Yes mate exactly what I was talking about that got slammed by a few people on here
No progression more losses coming m.I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that only Cane and Whitelock would currently be selected in a combined AB/Bok pack. Whitelock may not even make it tbh.
That unfortunately is the reality of where our forwards are atm. We simply aren't world class up front anymore.
Not sure how to make that comparison, almost the same forwards-Read beat the Boks last time out and Barrett had a great game and is probably our 4th best lock right now. That said we were collectively crap today but I would have to believe after watching the Boks tial they are hardly at their peak either.
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Siam said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Fuck this I'm getting drunk...where were you when the All Blacks looked like Southland...?
Listening to my wife snore on my shoulder after she fell asleep when we went behind.
Holy phrasing batman.
@SidBarret said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@PecoTrain based on week in week out performance I'd take him over Kolisi (and definitely over any bench option we have atm).
I am huge fan of Kolisi, but between injuries and the role he plays for SA, we don't see his best play often enough.
As a captain though, I am more than happy to Kolisi on and off the pitch.
It’s a bit of an unfair comparison though, because the balance and style of play of the AB and Bok backrows are very different. Kolisi for example might be more an 8 if he was a Kiwi