Beaten by a better team
I got very drunk during the game and fell asleep not long after. So I’m up at 4:30am on a Sunday
We were soundly beaten by a better team. They looked better conditioned from the start to about the 66 minute. They were physically and tactically stronger than us. They played territory to close out the game and defended like demons for 80 min. It’s hard to say this but I stopped thinking we could win at half time. I just didn’t see anyone on the field that could turn it around. No one. We do not have someone that can take over a game anymore. BB looks like he can still hit a gap and pull out some freakish plays. But the time spent switching between positions has affected his game management. It’s all a bit predictable now.
Mo’unga was rubbish yesterday. He played so casually like the game wasn’t hanging in the balance. That’s a good trait to have if you can follow up a poor play with several good ones. Like James Maloney in league. But the problem for Richie is he often makes a mistake and then we don’t see him do any at all for very long stretches. That’s not what you need leading your team around the field. Not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. He was outstanding a couple games back. But he’s still very much a work in progress.
I think Goodhue has been off all of the test series. He’s not making ground on carries and he’s been caught out on defense a few times. Looks underdone or carrying an injury. He’s much better player than what we have seen this year. His mate in the mid field has been outstanding though. ALB is going from strength to strength every game. Strong defender and makes ground on every carry. Best back this year.
Clarke got a reality check today. Will go back to calling him Eroni’s son instead of calling Clarke senior Caleb’s dad. I think Reece would have been a better option against this defense and with how flat we were on offence. Jordie Barrett needs to be given time in the 15 jersey. He was shit yesterday and was rightfully subbed but he’s playing out of position. I’d like to see McKenzie out on the wing. Just to see if we are potentially missing a trick. Yes I understand that would be playing another specialist fullback out of position...
The scrum got eaten yesterday. This is something we have been extremely strong in for a number of years now. So why have we suddenly gone backwards? I’m a fucken winger so can a prop explain it to me please. Redbeard was always good for that. Our lineout is consistently the best or in and around the best, year in year out. But not last night.
Aside from Whitelock I was disappointed with the entire forward back. They were bitch slapped for 80min. Hosking Sotutu made an impact against a tiring Puma pack but I’m struggling to think of a period we’re our pack looked cohesive or imposing.
I’m going to upset some of you Cane-Inites but he’s not a captains arsehole. ALB was taken high off the ball and eventually sent for an HIA. Nothing from Cane to the ref. Earlier in the game JB was hit with a shoulder to the head in a loose almost armless tackle and he stayed down for a long period. Cane should have been screaming at the ref to look for foul play. But again nothing. Smith was hit high in a yet another dubious tackle and again nothing from Cane. There was a maul formed on the Pumas line. The ref called out a pumas player to hold his position. Smith went to clear the ball and that player the ref called out then knocked the ball out of smiths hands. That’s 10 in the bin everyday of the week. We were hot on attack and Cane did not blow up. That’s all you need to know he’s not the guy. Cant fault his effort to put his body on the line. But he’s not the guy. “Who do you give to then, raz?” I hear you say. Fuck knows. Whitelock? Certainly plays like a “follow me”guy but is too quiet like Cane. A returning Retallick maybe. No one in the backs. Once upon a time Coles would have been good but he’s a 40-50min player now with an idiot streak that he’s never grown out of.
The ref was as shit as a ref can be. That charge down call was some shit he imagined. One of the worst calls I have ever seen. It shows a lack of feeling for the game and a lack of common sense. No excuses we lost because we were shit. But Angus put on one of the worst performances I’ve seen from a referee in years.
Lots to work on for the players. Very sure the coaches don’t have the ability to turn it around with a bit of motivational speaking. Because what ever was said at half time yesterday did Jack shit to spark them.
Probably a good thing Boks aren’t here this year
@gt12 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
This might make me feel better,
but it doesn't. One sentence jumps out, "this loss is going to hurt".
How about the fucking loss last week you fucking bunch of social media abusing toolboxes?
How about “the preparation was good”.
@DMX
We are going off topic.
That's kinda what I meant when I said we don't see his best because of the way Kolisi is used with the Springbok. They try and and use him in the Read role, but at his best he plays like a smaller faster Kaino.
Problem with Kolisi is that, unless he is good form, he doesn't have the volume of work and that is where Cane beats him most days.
When in form though and playing in middle of the park he does things that Cane can't and Vermeulen is miles better than Cane in the same role.
I've overslept kickoff, so only saw 2nd half.
It was shit. Argentina were pretty good.
It reminded me of the 2019 RWC semi, where I felt from early on that the ABs don't really seem to stand a chance but usually they still somehow squeeze out a win through one or two really late, incredible end-of-field-tries. Not anymore. It's tough when you've gotten used to this incredible period of dominance from the ABs from 2010 until about 2017 (in retrospect, the BIL tour seemed to me as the turning point, never would I ever have guessed that the ABs wouldn't comprehensively win the series). Anyways, maybe this shit the ABs served up for the last two games makes you appreciate them playing well a bit more, as you can no longer file that under "as expected" 
@SidBarret said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@DMX
We are going off topic.That's kinda what I meant when I said we don't see his best because of the way Kolisi is used with the Springbok. They try and and use him in the Read role, but at his best he plays like a smaller faster Kaino.
Problem with Kolisi is that, unless he is good form, he doesn't have the volume of work and that is where Cane beats him most days.
When in form though and playing in middle of the park he does things that Cane can't and Vermeulen is miles better than Cane in the same role.
I like Kolisi , but just think the who would make a Boks XV topic does not make much sesnse. Kolisi/Steph Dutoit/ Vermulen are very effective even though kolisi gets pulled pretty early. The last two times we played them there honestly was not much between our packs, I probably would give the ABs the edge and it was not because of Cane. Read was probably the weak link. Now I don't know why but we seem to have many of our same players underperforming but I don't know that you can assume Boks would not also underperform if they had come over as well.
@DMX you're right, the topic is Arg V nz, so comparing SA to NZ is pretty irrelavent. But asking how far some NZ players are from the pointy end of player available globally is kinda relevant.
I am not sure about the balance of the NZ backrow. Is Savea the right guy for the loose loose forward role? Are NZ getting enough out of their frontrow in the loose to justify the risks in tight? What happened to Paddy's form from SRA?
Thoughts from a rewatch of first 50. In some ways not a bad as I thought, in others much worse. Based on first 50 don't think it is fair to blame Foster for everything.
Anyhow:
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ABs actually did quite a lot well, without doing anything extraordinary.
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Trouble is it seems there was a 5 minute outbreak of brain fade amongst ABs which, by giving away stupid penalties, relieved pressure on Pumas and in some cases also led to points.
Cole slap penalty reversal 24
Jordie no arms 25
Frizell illegal cleanout 28
Savea comes round ruck thinking ball out 29
WTF!!!!
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The last of these nearly conceded a try, and then when Puma TH dropped left shoulder and bored in Moody penalised for dropping bind, which, given he was by then pushing on TH hip, was ludicrous. 3 points.
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Even then there was some light (albeit what seemed minutes lost for kick/kick off/another scrum (this time where Puma TH penalised for same thing)) and then Mo'unga overdoes kick to touch. Another scrum and half time at 16-3. It could/should have been 13-3/16-8.
Then in first 10 of second:
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AB backline runs move for what looks like first time ever and Jordie knocks on.
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Things led to another scrum in front of Puma sticks and Puma LH drags down on Lomax's jersey and he eventually goes to ground. Gardner penalises ABs, when it should have been other way around.
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To make matters worse, from lineout Puma maul draws penalty, then another stupid one from Goodhue, and hey presto it's 19-3 instead of 16-6. Huge difference at that stage.
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Last act of 50, ABs lose lineout on own throw.
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AB players need to take ownership for stupid acts of self sabotage, which made Pumas look considerably better than they probably were. That said, they could only play what was in front of them, which was a bit of a rabble.
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
More's the pity, because I think if ABs had focussed on maintaining the pressure the signs are the points would have come.
@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I would love to hear what BB really thinks of Foster and what has happened the last few years. I have a sneaking suspicion behind closed doors he thinks foster is a fluffybunny. This no doubt creeps into the culture of players etc and may help explain why he has just been off for some time.
Huh? He's only ever played with Foster as a coach hasn't he?
I think he has a lot of experience under a lot of different coaches so would be well placed to be an accurate judge of Foster's skills. The senior players would all have an opinion on what went wrong. Surely many of them can see the issues we are seeing.
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
I'm on the fence on this eh. I started off blaming the players for being stupid and still do to an extent but like I said in my first post, what the fuck is going on outside the games that is causing very accomplished players to become shells of their former selves?
A year or two ago Taylor was easily our best hooker and many were touting for Perenara over Smith. Now they look like NPC is their level. That can't all be on the players? It's so prevalent.
@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
I'm on the fence on this eh. I started off blaming the players for being stupid and still do to an extent but like I said in my first post, what the fuck is going on outside the games that is causing very accomplished players to become shells of their former selves?
Too much time hanging out on Manly beach?
Does anyone remet when the real hard fast line speed on defence became a thing? Cos we haven't innovated since then, or at least haven't innovated successfully. Our 3+ year old game plan needs a total remake. The continuity coaching set up is never going to bring that. FFS NZR we need to move on. End off this season at the latest, give the crusaders time to find a new coach, and the ABs time to plan
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
I'm on the fence on this eh. I started off blaming the players for being stupid and still do to an extent but like I said in my first post, what the fuck is going on outside the games that is causing very accomplished players to become shells of their former selves?
Too much time hanging out on Manly beach?
You reckon their togs are too small? I thought I saw this posted on the grumpy thread.
@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
I'm on the fence on this eh. I started off blaming the players for being stupid and still do to an extent but like I said in my first post, what the fuck is going on outside the games that is causing very accomplished players to become shells of their former selves?
A year or two ago Taylor was easily our best hooker and many were touting for Perenara over Smith. Now they look like NPC is their level. That can't all be on the players? It's so prevalent.
Yes I am struggling with this, over the last two games seem to be so many of our experienced guys who are underperforming. That’s 2 games in a row where I would struggle to find 3 MOTM candidates.
@Bones do they still use Enoka?
He used to get alot of credit for our players mental strength, now we seem to be making alot of poor decisions.
These players don't lose thier skill and ability, so what has happened, is the red and blue head stuff Henry used to talk about?
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Thoughts from a rewatch of first 50. In some ways not a bad as I thought, in others much worse. Based on first 50 don't think it is fair to blame Foster for everything.
Anyhow:
ABs actually did quite a lot well, without doing anything extraordinary.
Trouble is it seems there was a 5 minute outbreak of brain fade amongst ABs which, by giving away stupid penalties, relieved pressure on Pumas and in some cases also led to points.
Cole slap penalty reversal 24
Jordie no arms 25
Frizell illegal cleanout 28
Savea comes round ruck thinking ball out 29WTF!!!!
The last of these nearly conceded a try, and then when Puma TH dropped left shoulder and bored in Moody penalised for dropping bind, which, given he was by then pushing on TH hip, was ludicrous. 3 points.
Even then there was some light (albeit what seemed minutes lost for kick/kick off/another scrum (this time where Puma TH penalised for same thing)) and then Mo'unga overdoes kick to touch. Another scrum and half time at 16-3. It could/should have been 13-3/16-8.
Then in first 10 of second:
AB backline runs move for what looks like first time ever and Jordie knocks on.
Things led to another scrum in front of Puma sticks and Puma LH drags down on Lomax's jersey and he eventually goes to ground. Gardner penalises ABs, when it should have been other way around.
To make matters worse, from lineout Puma maul draws penalty, then another stupid one from Goodhue, and hey presto it's 19-3 instead of 16-6. Huge difference at that stage.
Last act of 50, ABs lose lineout on own throw.
AB players need to take ownership for stupid acts of self sabotage, which made Pumas look considerably better than they probably were. That said, they could only play what was in front of them, which was a bit of a rabble.
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
More's the pity, because I think if ABs had focussed on maintaining the pressure the signs are the points would have come.
The best analysis for me yet.
There was an interesting point in the post game analysis that showed the Pumas consistently with only 1 tackler and 14 men standing. The ABs have to figure out ( like the World Cup loss) how to win against teams that can match them physically and are good defensively.
Everyone thinks we are going to find super man players that are going to run through holes and into space that doesn’t exist e.g. as good as Sotutu and Clarke are they were just tackled yesterday like everyone else.
So for me it’s do the basics well, win the contact and don’t make errors. We just have too many players that did that yesterday and that collectively added up to a loss. As Pakman showed this was just good test rugby. Don’t make mistakes, play territory, create scoreboard pressure.
We all talk about Plan B. But we don’t have the mindset in our players to do Plan A in a test match. I actually think coaches get it more than the players but they hopefully will have seen the size of the issue yesterday. You actually need a number 8 carrying and hitting rucks and creating momentum at the get go not 60 mins in. And you want players with low error rates so you build pressure. We just are not currently capable of grinding out a win anymore. If we get back to that we will be ok.
I see this game as an example of poor coaching, poor tactics, poor leadership, and poor team culture. The game plan was stupid, at no time was anyone adapting to the Argie rush defence. Bashing the ball up over and over is a hiding to nothing when the other team is bigger and we have a bunch of sixes and lazy front row setting up precisely nothing for the backs. For quite a few games now I've been irritated how often the backs then just shuffle the ball along the line. No gaps created, no chips over defence, no back up at the shoulder of a line break, when there always used to be an AB right there. Poor coaching.
Not sure what the hell is going on with the senior leadership team. Cane has proven to be an average captain at best, if you have a bunch of newbies and are getting penalised all the time, you can't just say follow me and disappear. These troops need marshaling. They need to be told to pull their heads in when they get pissy. Far too many are getting rattled as hell and not even doing basics right. Quite often it seems like the instinct is gone, that reliance on mates, that good balance of steady forward unleashing explosive back. Get Coles the fuck off the wing and tell him to get to the bottom of the pile where he belongs. Jordie is not a winger, stop putting him there. The Richie and BB thing is all well and good, but when they are off, they are awful. The backline was a shambles, and no half back is putting his hand up right now.
I'm actually sick of the social media stuff, the fawning hype, the ads, the extended vacations to Japan. That's all some of the players seem to care about. The best product is a team showing you they are the best, not telling you. You can't live on legacy forever, you have to keep adding to the aura to refresh it. Last night we were completely out thought, out played, out coached and out passioned. The Argies clearly have a solid team culture, bound by adversity and playing for each other. We have a bunch of guys who frequently look like they just met 5 mins before. And that sucks.
@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Bones do they still use Enoka?
He used to get alot of credit for our players mental strength, now we seem to be making alot of poor decisions.
These players don't lose thier skill and ability, so what has happened, is the red and blue head stuff Henry used to talk about?
Yeah I’m not sure Enoka is the guy because he’s been involved since the late90s / early 2000s and it was only when McCaw consulted Ceri Evans that we got the blue / red thing and we actually won a world cup
Not an excuse but what were the ABs playing for yesterday? A Trinations trophy nobody seems particularly interested in. I suspect many of the players would much rather be with their families and young children. Yes playing for the ABs should be enough motivation for anyone but from where I'm sitting they are a long way from being mentally strong.
Argentina on the other hand have had months of build up for this one game, to beat a team they have never beaten and a clear game plan to train for.
It was obvious which team wanted it and turned up. In theory the ABs have more talent and skill on a per player basis but the Pumas were a far better team both physically and mentally.
Not sure what the answer is but I hope they use the next two weeks to figure out why the players would rather be at home than playing for the ABs.
Robertson often talks about a journey and theme with the Crusaders all the players buy into, they are all playing for him and that theme. The ABs say the right things in the press but I wonder if many of the players don't believe in Foster and the team.
I think one clip BB off handedly said Plums doesn't know what he is talking about in reference to his Achilles injury. That is a concern to me.
@junior ah ok, well guess same question applies to Evans.
Although uncle Google says he's been there and still there...
From orphan upbringing to secret behind All Blacks' success: Gilbert Enoka reflects on meteoric rise during COVID-19 lockdown | Newshub
My house, my bubble - the mental skills coach on overcoming adversity.
@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus not like these issues are new to 2020 though are they
Nope Chicago had a very similar feel to it.
@chimoaus another neutral venue not traditionally used for rugby too...
Maybe Aura cant get into these grounds due to another sports aura's presence?
It is not the players. If it were the players, we would have been saying a month back how well we were doing with a very average team. (I have always had issues with Frizzell, and I really don't like picking Jordie on the wing, but they're not tragically bad. We've fielded B teams in the past that are doing better than the current team.)
They've been overseas, in an English-speaking country on approximately the same time zone, for less than a month. It can't be that they are tired of the travel. Most tours are much longer than they have been away for and involve much more travel.
It has to be the coaching set-up. They look aimless.
(Even if part of it is Cane's captaincy, which is an odd time for it to suddenly start becoming an issue, that is also part of the coaching and selection decisions.)
I had thought it would take a year for Foster to lose the AB magic. Turns out, that was optimistic.
(It was a specialty of the Foster era with the Chiefs that they would look like world-beaters against good sides, then play like turkeys against sides that they would be expected to beat easily. The pattern repeats, it would seem.)
@Chester-Draws he's done more in less time to hurt Aura than any ABs coach since John Hart went on his losing run
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Argentina on the other hand have had months of build up for this one game, to beat a team they have never beaten and a clear game plan to train for.
Wait, Argies don't have family? If I was an AB I'd be training to beat a team we'd never lost to.
Well with the benefit of some space here’s my take.
The ABs have been riding their luck for a while now against a rush defence, with the theory being (as I understand it) that as defences tire you get misalignment because it becomes increasingly difficult for the big forwards to move up at pace while staying aligned with the backs. Then take advantage of the small misalignments to breach the d line.
In practice that worked too, which may be why we saw points coming in the 3rd quarter, the ABs made the oppo make tackles and tired out their forwards earlier in the game, then when the subs come on for the oppo it’s too late because they’re now playing catch-up and they have a different problem.
But all that is based on the AB doing their jobs really well. Good body position taking the tackle, good handling and great cleanouts to force the defence to move. Instead though we’ve now got slow and unreliable breakdowns so by the time the halfback has cleared the ball the rush has had plenty of time to align. As oppositions get fitter it becomes even harder manipulate the line.
I’m interested to know what Foster’s plan is now. The players obviously know their jobs but they aren’t executing. Sam Whitelock on his own isn’t going to secure quick ball for 80 minutes. And press conferences aren’t going to fix that, coaching is. But I haven’t seen any evidence of coaching happening.
If all you have to do to be AB coach now is selection then I’ll have a go. After all it seems you don’t have to actually win. I reckon I can do a selection conference then a post match where I can say the players didn’t execute. After all they’ve already fucked the legacy so I don’t have to worry about that.
@MrDenmore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Foster’s a dead man walking.
He is if I see him.
@PecoTrain said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Where I do disagree with you is in the Henry/McCaw era
Point of order: I said "since [they] left" 
@raznomore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
The scrum got eaten yesterday. This is something we have been extremely strong in for a number of years now. So why have we suddenly gone backwards? I’m a fucken winger so can a prop explain it to me please. Redbeard was always good for that.
I think its down to your second row inconsistency. When you've got BBBR or Thorn pushing it is a markedly different prospect to Whitelock (who is no slouch) and almost anyone else available ATM. Throw in Whitelock having a couple of up and down performances, and swapping combinations through selection.
Our lineout is consistently the best or in and around the best, year in year out. But not last night.
It wasn't great last week either. Camped on the Wallaby line at the end of the first half and then got picked off. Again: consistency.
@Yeetyaah said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
That being said, let's put this one down as a friendly and not count it.
A friendly reaming
@NTA said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
It wasn't great last week either. Camped on the Wallaby line at the end of the first half and then got picked off. Again: consistency
Is that what Codie is short for?
man if you look at some of the game stats (which are a bit dubious to say the least - like the defenders beaten ones for us) we should have won this game
28 tackles by Kremer from 31 attempted, Montoya with 2nd highest in the team with 16, and none missed
https://www.espn.com.au/rugby/playerstats?gameId=592925&league=289274
Just shows we did absolutely nothing with the ball we had.
Instead we just kept running into the wall expecting it to break.
This is where we needed Cane to step and say look, we need to do this instead, or BB to say he guys I can see we need to set our pods wider, or SMith to say look I can see we need to get over them cos we aint gettign through them...instead we stubbornly kept trying to break them down.
McCaw struggled in his early years as captain, I think Cane could be a very good captain too, but we need our senior players to step up and react to the situation, rather than seemingly keep banging away blindly
As an aside, I'd like to know what the Argie number 5 was penalised for when knocked the ball from Aaron Smith's hands.
I heard the ref telling him he was ok in the maul, so why penalise him?
And if he was penalised for deliberately disrupting the hb, how is that different from barrets yellow card?
Big decisions being refereed differently is a problem.
Similarly what happened to "player safety" when ALB got HIA'd and Nugget got walloped?
@Siam said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
As an aside, I'd like to know what the Argie number 5 was penalised for when knocked the ball from Aaron Smith's hands.
I heard the ref telling him he was ok in the maul, so why penalise him?
And if he was penalised for deliberately disrupting the hb, how is that different from barrets yellow card?
Barrett got a yellow card because he was off his feet, illegally positioned at a ruck, being a fuckwit.
The Argie 5 got a penalty because he was ON his feet, LEGALLY positioned at a maul, being a fuckwit.
Both got penalised for knocking the ball with no attempt to rip or possess it. Effectively it is a deliberate knockdown but generally against the spirit of the game.
But the Laws give referees discretion to determine what is a professional foul or not. Barrett's met that definition because he decided to double down on stupid.
@NTA ok, I can understand that. So you need to be committing numerous offences to warrant a card.
Let's see how that plays out...