All Blacks v Argentina I

@daffy-jaffy some good comments in there from Fozzie about the Argies and how they play and the defensive focus. Puts some of our attack into perspective somewhat.

@mikethesnow said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

This has been a towelling much worse than the scoreboard suggests.

As predicted

Argentina are Italy standard at best at the moment

Their attack is tier 2 standard but defensively they do some things at a very high level. They fan pretty well and are hard at the ball. For a team that not long ago were final 4 RWC quality, their sense of attack and the old flair they had seems a distant memory.

Posting this here, but it could be a new thread...

We still have to play the Saffas but I've been pretty happy with the performance in the last 2-3 games. There's been a real step change in the AB performances and play - they have started to look and play like a settled team.

Play has become much more precise with far fewer mistakes overall - plenty of evidence of cool heads under pressure, though there's too many penalties. I've noticed the senior player stepping up, talking to each other and the team tweaking tactics when things aren't going well. The team looks way more confident when things aren't working out and that's with a different captain each week. I don't know how much of this is down to Foster or the senior players, but it's good to see. Perhaps Sam Cane is having a big influence in the background?

Foster clearly has his A team and is building experience with the second-stringers who are stepping up to the mark. That said, I just don't get George Bridge's selection or how he's playing and the goal-kicking is a worry.

After what seems to have been years of buggering around, we have some solidity in midfield with ALB providing the stability and organisation and Havilli growing into his role. Starting to look like a long-term partnership. Reiko is a winger that can cover at centre and really seems to have got his mojo back - his play at 13 today was the best I've seen from him in that position. Jordie is playing in his right position (though I'm happy with either JB or DMac). With Nugget unavailable, TJP & Webber have done pretty well and 10 looks good with either BB or Ritchie. Thought TJP had one of his best games in Black today.

Pretty much the same for 6/7/8 which seems to be playing as a unit - regardless who plays. Akira has really come of age and got his head together - Fozzie deserves credit for that. And Sam Cane? I think he'll be an automatic choice at 7 for a few tests and having two seriously hard players at the breakdown could be something really good to look forward to.

BBBR looks back to his best and Scott Barrett is playing better than ever. He was immense today and has a huge motor. Know bugger-all about the front row so won't comment. (yeah, i know, it's not the Fern style..)

All in all, way more comfortable with the way things are heading. The team looks to be playing as a unit and with way more intelligence and control than last year. If we carry on like this and beat the Boks, I think we can give Fozzie some credit for where the team has ended up.

@bones In all fairness he has played pretty well in past games so I’d give him a pass. Who would you want instead? He’s still young and I don’t think he is a liability and I would not say he is anymore inconsistent that PT.

Quoting Planetrugby here:

"One small statistic from the match is quite remarkable – in 80 minutes New Zealand made more passes in centres (63) than either the Lions or South Africa managed in three Tests earlier this year."

That Lions series was serious shithouse watching

Try highlights with the Oz commentary -

@broughie said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@bones In all fairness he has played pretty well in past games so I’d give him a pass. Who would you want instead? He’s still young and I don’t think he is a liability and I would not say he is anymore inconsistent that PT.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's out of his league by any stretch and is of course still only young. He's just a bit "meh" at the moment. Seriously, what are his strengths? Anyone?

Parkinson has huge potential, but concrete feet. Dickson more dynamic, but smallish. Scranton? He's just Barrett lite. Selby-Rickett has baggage and had dropped in form over the season.

Tuipulotu is pretty disappointing - but I'd prefer him off the bench than Va'ai. He's always good for a lineout steal or two, as well as a few bruises for the opposition. Not great when he starts though.

@bones I think because the game was so defensive it was more of an exercise in tackling for the forwards and we didn’t see Akira with any space like the week before with the Ozzie‘s. So I don’t think he stood out just as Dalton P and others didn’t stand out either. Not that they were not playing well but they were just stuck in the mud so to speak. PT has the potential to offer more off the bench but gosh I wish he took his angry pills more often. Someone needs to fire him up. Maybe threaten his wife and children. Agree about the rest. I’ll have to rewatch is lineout contributions but our hookers couldn’t throw past 2 with success yesterday. They ran well though.

@tordah said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

Quoting Planetrugby here:

"One small statistic from the match is quite remarkable – in 80 minutes New Zealand made more passes in centres (63) than either the Lions or South Africa managed in three Tests earlier this year."

That Lions series was serious shithouse watching

That is an amazing stat

@tordah said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

Quoting Planetrugby here:

"One small statistic from the match is quite remarkable – in 80 minutes New Zealand made more passes in centres (63) than either the Lions or South Africa managed in three Tests earlier this year."

That Lions series was serious shithouse watching

Is that together?

@broughie Loosies were playing tighter on attack and Argentina had Akira as a "marked man" not surprisingly after last week.

Both Paps and Jacobson had better all round games for me this week than Akira, who was still solid+

@l_n_p Certainly a different game and yes he was marked.

@broughie yeah like @L_n_P said, Akira was playing a different plan this week.

@bones said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@bones said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

Bridge has got to be under clear instruction - apart from the grubber ahead, was there a carry where he didn't just tuck and go for the nearest tackler?

He obviously offers something that Foster & co see and we don't, but I'm buggered if I can spot it

Like kev said, I guess the team at least know what's going to happen when he gets the ball and can set accordingly? He typically doesn't turn it over either.

I dunno. I sense he's a better player than what we have seen from him in Black so far. It's almost as though he's been told to do as little as possible once he's got the ball.

It gets fucking frustrating to see so many opportunities scorned though.

He's probably frustrated as well.

@victor-meldrew yeah, thought that was kinda the point I was making. Maybe similar to what I thought of Jordan until last week - the frustrating moments just seem so derived that it can't be the player's "instincts".

@bones said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@victor-meldrew yeah, thought that was kinda the point I was making. Maybe similar to what I thought of Jordan until last week - the frustrating moments just seem so derived that it can't be the player's "instincts".

Never thought I'd say this, but perhaps Foster is a bit cuter than we think and has confidence Bridge will grow into the role Foster obviously sees for him.

@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@machpants I think Havili is def struggling with rhier defence running around like Dmac and limiting options

Yeah, just needs to run straight. Doesn’t help anyone running backwards behind his own players

He did this a lot for the Crusaders too a while back. I remember saying on here I was not convinced about him as a 12 because of his sideways running. Didn't do it as much this year when he played at 12 regularly, so hopefully it's a temporary thing while he gets used to the next step up. .

@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@african-monkey said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@chimoaus Ennor but he's always injured anyway.

Just play him at wing so we can fuck off bridge.

He will bring his own set of frustrations, especially given he has not played much lately.

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

Got away with it, but that hit was inches away from a card.

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

Got away with it, but that hit was inches away from a card.

Jeez dude, best hit of the weekend, perfectly executed, and ‘got away with it’? Glass half empty much?

The other 4 penailties he gave away he didn’t get away with, mind you

I thought Laulala was close to a card- lucky and was ok in ball security but was that 3 penalties? Can't do that, those numbers makes Ofa look good.
I'm not sure if I was more amazed by our hookers acceleration (and Aumua had a silky pass or two) or how hard it is to teach hookers to throw but boy they are brick walls when they need to be, good to see. I still rate Coles as #1, he just knows what to do and improves his x-factor play the more it is required.
Moody was quietly effective in the tackle.

BBR was everywhere, making metres, great tackling, but, and I risk the ire of Ferners, I thought Scott Barrett missed an important tackle in the first 5 minutes, had a big motor, didn't lose the ball or his rag, was great in the lineouts, but wasn't BBBR or Sam W. (Not sure how they are instructing the bench-Va'a didn't seem to know what he was doing out there, Tupaea sometimes also looked lost).

The loosies-again it was hard to see Dalton at times because he was always on the ground but in a good way, major turnovers (one in the face of two or three shocked Argies), a good turn of pace, linked well and tackled like a Swiss clock. Jacobson, sometimes, I notice, he hasn't planned ahead for the tackle and drops surprise/weak passes, but overall and especially defensively, and for those tries, well played. Yes Akira was targetted (as was Havili and DMac-well, attempted) but he still played very very well and it is hard to imagine Frizzell displacing him.

TJP directed really well, always running with the pass rather than hesitating, doesn't seem to have the footspeed he had in the pass, but had a great game. Apart from a scamper or two and some quick passes I thought Weber still had some low, dodgy passes, and I noticed DMac did as well at 10. Luckily it wasn't too obvious as the catcher usually managed to adjust. DMac did not have a great game at 10 but considering he has a calf injury (and why then was he kicking), some of BB's passing was sublime and his running more direct than I can recall for a year or two.

I'm not sure how many tries we left out there because Reece's arm was too short or JB's feet/legs were too big but boy there might have been 20 points for a couple of mm or bodies hiding the ball. Gotta say the Argies' defence was impressive, on the line, in the tackle, ruck..they tried to lift some players less successfully but to keep that defensive wall up for nearly 200 tackles..just wish they tried to score at the other side occassionally. I don't think they ever really played to win.

And that especially goes for Kremer and Matera who were lucky not to be found out more often than they did. I like their coach though, no claptrap.
And with Chieka and a couple of masks and a ring in, Ledesma could do a good Walt Disney Beagles Boys impression.

Havili looked frustrated out there and was often picked on by the Argies but I thought he played nearly as well as Rieko Ioane, if we could just leverage his breaks a little more....

I thought Bridge looked faster, more decisive, a little unlucky. I rate Jordan and Reece higher as wingers, but apart from one stuffed up move I thought he did ok.

But no way should they let older bro B. Barrett take the conversions and penalties.

I reckon the Boks will be better next week. I think we still have some chinks to work on, driving up the guts for 60-70 minutes didn't see that many returns against Argentina, the Boks might look forward to that so a plan B might be an idea.

If JB and BB are on the pitch, JB takes the goal kicks, from the start. Its not rocket science ...

None of the starting 15 really had a howler. All the forwards were good. Even Bridge was OK without being eye-catching.

I prefer Reiko on the wing purely because he gets more opportunities out there and Havilli and ALB are a great combo.

Jordie has proven that he needs to be there over Dmac. Even against tired legs, Dmac didn't offer much

So swing in Aaron Smith, Mounga and ALB and the team looks after itself.

Yeah Vai’i and DMac really were not much impact off the bench. I’d rate them lowest of all the 23, with Nepo gaining the third ‘bottom 3’ spot due to his FOUR penalties given.

@hooroo Whitelock too, Moody, Taylor to the starting line up, then you add Coles, Clarke and Goodhue into the mix and things start to look even better.

Oh, and to answer the question I was posed at the start. Argentina were like a flat out of date Quilmes, really hard to get through and offering nothing positive

@machpants said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

Got away with it, but that hit was inches away from a card.

Jeez dude, best hit of the weekend, perfectly executed, and ‘got away with it’? Glass half empty much?

The other 4 penailties he gave away he didn’t get away with, mind you

Not being glass half empty at all. Agreed, it was a good hit,but it was inches away from being a card.

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@hooroo Whitelock too, Moody, Taylor to the starting line up, then you add Coles, Clarke and Goodhue into the mix and things start to look even better.

You can make a decent case that this would be first choice starting XV if everyone was fit:

Moody, Taylor, Tuúngafasi, Whitelock, Retallick, Ioane, Cane, Savea, Smith, Mo'unga, Ioane, Lienert-Brown, Goodhue, Jordan, McKenzie.

Not quite what I would pick and probably not quite what Fozzie would pick - tighthead, midfield mix and fullback are question marks. But, only three of last nights starters and Rieko out of position.

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@hooroo Whitelock too, Moody, Taylor to the starting line up, then you add Coles, Clarke and Goodhue into the mix and things start to look even better.

True. Clarke I can take or leave as not that bothered about him now. I think S Barrett covered what Whitelock does so I can't see a change in performance once Whitelock comes back.

I'd have Coles over Taylor too.

@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@hooroo Whitelock too, Moody, Taylor to the starting line up, then you add Coles, Clarke and Goodhue into the mix and things start to look even better.

You can make a decent case that this would be first choice starting XV if everyone was fit:

Moody, Taylor, Tuúngafasi, Whitelock, Retallick, Ioane, Cane, Savea, Smith, Mo'unga, Ioane, Lienert-Brown, Goodhue, Jordan, McKenzie.

Not quite what I would pick and probably not quite what Fozzie would pick - tighthead, midfield mix and fullback are question marks. But, only three of last nights starters and Rieko out of position.

I know Cane is captain but I'd go Papalii over him based on Dalton's performances. With Barrett/Whitelock and Retallick, the Cane presence is as needed IMO

You don't think J Barrett has done enough to keep Dmac out?

@hooroo just more that having players of that calibre available is a good thing.

So looking forward to the Bok tests!

edit: Damn, forgot about Cane too.

@hooroo I've been in favour of Jordie all season - I don't like too many little men. But, I think it's a question mark. Fozzie seemed to prefer DMac at the start of the season and now the water is muddy because Dmac is the back-up first five.

Wasn't Cane was player of the season last year? I think he walks in if available and both Fozzie and I are picking him.

@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):

@hooroo I've been in favour of Jordie all season - I don't like too many little men. But, I think it's a question mark. Fozzie seemed to prefer DMac at the start of the season and now the water is muddy because Dmac is the back-up first five.

Wasn't Cane was player of the season last year? I think he walks in if available and both Fozzie and I are picking him.

Good point about Cane last year (I have a shocking memory). It seems he's been injured forever. I happily take back Dalton over Sam, I would take Cane on last years performance.

im really torn if cane walks back in after yet another injury or if paps or savea even play as guys that are a bit more battle hardened, wil have built more connections with the guys guys