ABs v England - Time for change
Well, that’s a good comeback and a lucky win, and probably a good result for the team looking forward - as I've written before, we could easily face similar wet conditions next year in the WC if a typhoon hits. Equally, it could be 35 degrees and stinking hot, but I'm sure we'd feel more comfortable in those conditions compared to wet rugby.
Regarding the 'controversial' no try, I thought at the time that Lawes was offside, but they had been threatening there all day, and with TJP only having a left foot, he must be protected. It's suicidal play by the ABs the way we are not protecting the HB, and they were very lucky to get away with it (as equally were England unlucky to have that one called back after attacking the kicker in a similar vain, with no referee involvement all day).
Furthermore, BB, what the fuck was that ‘defence’?
We have to do something about our defense. England were very very good early, but equally our first up defence was terrible. It’s either the players, the coaches, or both.
Although he was my hero as a player, McLeod is no Wayne Smith as a defensive coach. Perhaps it’s just time, but either way our defence (early on) was just not good enough. In the early minutes England made metres at will (perhaps because a number of passes to crash runners were forward) but either way they had us stretched easily.
One thing we should put away is moving BBBR to the front to attack their lineout. In itself, I think that was the winning of the game, and strategically I think we should shelve it until we need it again (i.e., next year). I love to see us attacking the other teams ball, and with Scott Barrett on, there were just so many options. Right now, I'd hold it back.
Attack
They knew the way we use the 1-3-3-1 and especially the short pass, and early in the game, they were just standing off the 2nd man in the pod (usually the passer) and hammering the 3rd man. Although it took a little while, I was impressed that we saw that they were doing this, and then saw a lot more runs from the second man (especially Whitelock made good decisions here and was probably unlucky to not get a MOTM vote from me), getting us some go forward.
In these conditions, Beauden Barrett really didn't look that good. It's not just the kicking, it's the aimless and poor kicking (of course, he's not the only guilty one here). I can see that it is strategy, but there is no variation. From memory, he didn't run until the 43rd minute, and we looked much better once he had some help from Crotty - who attacked the line from first or second receiver with vigor. It was much needed. It seems to me that Barrett he isn't being helped by the poor form of the players being selected around him (A Smith, SBW), and after moving to fullback, BB got a few more metres, and looked a bit more dangerous.
Personally, I thought that Dmac had a very good game, despite a few errors - he beat 9 defenders and gave two offloads, doing a pretty job defusing the high balls that came his way. I probably would have taken off Ioane, rather than Dmac and tried to attack late with three playmakers, but I can understand why they left Ioane out there given his ability to break open a game. Overall, I think that the two playmakers idea didn't really come off, but at least Dmac made a good fist of playing 15.
Our biggest problem (apart from some of the kicking and protection of the kicker) was not being accurate when we did break them down. Both Smith - and to a lesser extent Savea - were guilty of that by fucking up a certain try, but there were plenty of other half chances that got lost through poor ball security.
You wouldn't think it, but according to ESPN stats we had 60% territory and possession in both halves, yet couldn't break through - and missed chances when we did. With 14 clean breaks, 46 defenders beaten, and 10 offloads, we should have scored more points. That's a big positive for England - they scrambled very well, but equally it shows we just aren't finishing things in the way we were earlier in the season. To be fair, ball security in a game like that is a trick, so I can understand some of the dropped balls from Dmac and Read in the second half when we were building pressure, but Ofa’s loss in the last five was a bit unforgivable.
Where are you Liam Squire?
Two weeks ago in Tokyo I thought that Liam Squire was one of our best, but he was miles away tonight, and rightly subbed for Barrett, who played very well. Although stats don't tell the whole story, they paint a reasonable picture here: In 52 minutes Squire managed zero metres gained with only three touches (and no passes), with 5 tackles. Barrett managed 6 tackles with one miss, and made 12 metres off three runs, with one offload in 28 minutes. Against the best teams, we still have a problem at six, and as we saw last week, Fifita isn't even the answer against weak teams. Is Barrett the answer to start against some teams?
On the other hand, two weeks ago I thought Read was quiet. Well, he wasn't tonight. He lead the forwards in metres run (48 off 10 runs), with seven defenders beaten and seven passes, only missing one tackle (while making 7). He did concede three turnovers, but a much better effort from him and hopefully a needed return to form. Ardie was good again, with 12 tackles and no misses, and 18 metres off 10 runs. Looking forward, I wonder whether, at some point, we'll see a Cane, Savea, Read back row... because it's hard to leave out Ardie and Todd, who made two dominant tackles in his 12 minutes.
Is it time for some big changes?
Some players just aren’t as good as they used to be.
The match thread is rightly discussing the problem with the coaches trying to play SBW back into form, when it should be obvious that he is now a bit of a carthorse and that, simply put, others are playing better. It’s been time to call it on SBW for a while, but you know how bad it is when the broken SWB Crotty comes on and straight away makes a difference. If we were honest, SBW has never looked that good at 12, except when he was outside Cruden (and fit, and younger). That’s a very long time ago and he has almost no cohesion with BB or, well, anyone right now. He may be able to play himself back in via Super rugby, but he should be fourth choice in this squad, and probably doesn't deserve to hold out Laumape.
What jumped out at me, and has been quietly brewing in some discussions on the fern for a while, is how far off the pace Owen Franks is nowadays. He was comprehensively outplayed by Sinckler (8 runs, 16 metres, 1 pass, 8 tackles with one miss). Franks contributed six tackles with two misses (as is usual nowadays) and made all of one metre off 4 runs. He can scrum of course, and Nepo had a bit of a harder time out there at times at set piece, but also contributed five tackles (no misses) with 3 metres off 3 runs, with one pass and one defender beaten in his 36 minutes.
Ofa struggled a bit at loosehead, but with Moody or Hames back (and Ross coming) I wonder whether we should start Nepo and Moody with Carl and Ofa off the bench. It's been good to get some time in Ofa at LH looking forward to next year, but I also think it's probably time for Owen to be the safe pair of hands in the squad next year, but not be the starting TH.
So, with a few games left in the season, I think we are left with more questions than the start - questions in the front row, still difficulty getting the right balance in the loosies (i.e., at six), debate about the starting nine, and we still don't know what our best midfield looks like. Plus, of course, the ongoing BB discussion.
On the positive side, we have BBBR back and playing well, Coles looking pretty good and keeping our line out functioning late in the game, Dmac looking at home at 15, and Goodhue looking like the long term 13, so if we can get some better performances from A Smith and settle on a better 12/13 combo we should get home against Ireland. Liam Squire, it's time to show that you belong at this level.
The Pom rolling maul.
Is there a law issue about players joining and the ball not being transferred to the back?
Just seemed strange that the ball was being held in the middle.
I doubt there's a way to enforce but I thought there was a law about the ball being in the back.
Probably not though... it's all too complicated ( for me)
Back from my corporate jolly to game...some thoughts having not seen any replays or TV. Long-ish post. (Skip to he last 2 paras for the incisive bit)
Twickenham a pain to get to...and into. Ticket entry barriers weren't working, RFU needs to get its act together - pretty crap really. The crowd was far more respectful to the opposition and the kickers. First time I'd been to Twickenham for a test in about 10 years, so credit to the RFU. Atmosphere was great.
Pom tactics and decision making were excellent in the first 30 minutes - crap after that. Thought Farrell had a poor game - zero variation in his game. Underhill was astonishingly good for England and was my MoM.
AB backline was poor until Crotty came on and he seemed to give a lot of solidity. Thought SBW was poor and you wonder how long he'll be in the team. England targeted DMac with the high ball but he did OK and as well as anyone else - he certainly doesn't lack guts, thats for sure. On attack he was probably the most dangerous AB back. Thought our kicking game (inc. DMac) was shite. We looked way more dangerous when keeping the ball in hand.
Retallick & Savea were immense. BBBR utterly owned the Pom lineout, ruck, maul and, well, the whole pitch. Ardie seemed to be everywhere.
Ben Kay and Ugo Monye hosted a post match analysis for the corporate clients which was excellent. No argument that Lawes was offside from them. We then had a Q&A with Itoje and Danny Care.
Itoje & Care seemed good blokes but I was surprised by the complacency in their attitude. They thought that as they had only lost by 1 point they had scored a famous victory. Astonishing attitude in many ways. Hope I never hear an AB talk like that.
All in all, a mistake-strewn game. But we dogged a win - which I sense Hansen will be happy with
@mariner4life said in England vs All Blacks:
Lawes started iffside let alone moved early. Correct decision.
England will be devo, they threw everything at that
And the weather dragged us down to their level. They won’t get a better opportunity to beat us.
Losing a 15-0 lead in those conditions was huge.
@mariner4life said in England vs All Blacks:
How many shit games does SBW get before he's fucked off? If he was a racehorse he'd be shot
A Smith was pretty poor. Our kicking game wasn't up to scratch while England's was great.
Happy with pretty much everyone else though. Damn slippery ball.
Some of your best work. Outstanding even. And all so true.
@victor-meldrew Yeah, Underhill was unbelievable and my MOTM as well. Have not really seen too much of him before but he looks to be a really special player. Certainly a lot better than Curry who didn't impress last week. It's about time England had a decent openside and it looks like they have unearthed a gem.
@mariner4life Yeah he was good. Shields a non entity, and dropped the ball. BBBR was better, and Barrett The Younger was as good IMO
That game was probably good for both teams. England should gain some belief that they can go with us while still keeping their feet on the ground given they couldn't get the win.
Likewise we should have our feet firmly on the ground with regards to the amount of work required before the RWC, whilst taking some confidence with closing out a dogged test in atrocious conditions.
@no-quarter said in England vs All Blacks:
England should gain some belief that they can go with us while still keeping their feet on the ground given they couldn't get the win.
Yeah, nah. Where is @Bones post about claiming underdog status for us? "At home", etc etc.
England had everything in their favour, even down to the weather, and failed. Close, but no cigar.
On my re-watch the ABs weren't as bad as I first felt. No stress means less cursing. A Smith is well off form, both 9's need to stop box kicking until they can both get it away quick and land it in a good place. I'm sure there is a reason why the ABs continually kick to the player to allow them to counter attack, but I don't get it. But they do it so often there MUST be a reason, I would prefer the way Eng did it, box kick to turn around back three (not to compete) and long kick for the sideline. England were firing first 30 or so, but not much after that. Stats agree that ABs were all good, but we couldn't finish (again A Smith), like against the boks. McKenzie is great on attack but a bloody liability in a tight match, an unacceptable 5 TC of an even more unacceptable 20 by ABs. Start Mo'unga 10 or 15, either way, and DMAc for tired defences later thank you.
@machpants agree. I woke up and watched 2nd half first then first half after. If you didn't see score NZ was dominant and England offered little.
@98blueandgold Yeah I woke up at 430, and watched from 15-0 down with SBW just going off! Great place to start 
@no-quarter said in England vs All Blacks:
If Beauden had made the tackle Underhill then the offside would not have been checked and England would have had possession right on our line.
He's a bloody legend. Reads the game better than anyone.
@bovidae said in England vs All Blacks:
Out of curiosity I was interested to know when England last out-scored NZ in tries in a test at Twickenham. You might have thought it was in the 38-21 loss in 2012 but it wasn't (3 tries each). You have to go back to the 26-26 draw in 1997 (3 vs 2).
When was the last time NZ outscored England in drop goals?
@bones said in England vs All Blacks:
When was the last time NZ outscored England in drop goals?
Good question. I hope it's Cape Town in 1995.
If wiki is correct BB only has 1 DG for the Canes as well.
@majorrage said in England vs All Blacks:
England robbed.
Shit decison. Reverse it and This forum tops porn hub for bandwidth.
Hollow victory for me, Twickenham felt confused
What a load of bullshit. I think you've out marshalled Justin Marshall there. Pretty sad for you.
Have only just watched the game, a few thoughts.
England were clinical as hell for 25 minutes but were never really overly threatening, which sounds weird considering they were deservedly up by 15 points.
Our tactics of nudging into the corners were spot on for the conditions, though the execution most of the first half was bloody poor.
BBBR was outstanding, what a beast.
Ardie good yet again.
A Smith better than he has been recently.
It’s time to invest in youth at 12, we really need someone there who isn’t going to break every 5 minutes. We’ve got 2 blokes job sharing doing a combined 75% of what ALB or Laumape could do on their own.
DMac possibly his best game in black, did a great job tidying up at the back.
The offside/no try call was 100% correct, it was clear as day that he was a body width offside.
Great test match.
@bones said in England vs All Blacks:
@majorrage said in England vs All Blacks:
England robbed.
Shit decison. Reverse it and This forum tops porn hub for bandwidth.
Hollow victory for me, Twickenham felt confused
What a load of bullshit. I think you've out marshalled Justin Marshall there. Pretty sad for you.
@mariner4life said in England vs All Blacks:
Lawes started iffside let alone moved early. Correct decision.
England will be devo, they threw everything at that
England most likely will be disappointed that in the second half they played very little rugby with the ball. The ABs had more patches of go forward in the second half thanks to both our backs and forwards.
@rapido said in England vs All Blacks:
I was very disappointed with nz scrum. To only get parity with the worst scrum in tier 1 rugby is a national disgrace. A stain on all our manhoods.
I did expect that we would have more dominance in that area although as pointed out pre match, the way scrums are adjudicated at the moment causing the opposition to buckle down or stand up is only called if the ball isn't available at the back. I think we had a few of those.
Also looked to me like the one where Of a didn't bind was a dominant scrum at a good position and time. The lack of bind got the blame as it was the easiest call. Of a put his hand down to stabilise but couldn't get it back up.
I don't think Shag will be too happy with Ofa for just lying on their side of the ruck towards the end of the match just outside their 22. He made no attempt to roll away. Another ref could have easily penalised him for that and it would have been 3 points to them and game over. Terrible discipline on his part.
@akan004 I was quite suprised he got away with that tbh. Most of those get given these days.
@akan004 said in England vs All Blacks:
I don't think Shag will be too happy with Ofa for just lying on their side of the ruck towards the end of the match just outside their 22. He made no attempt to roll away. Another ref could have easily penalised him for that and it would have been 3 points to them and game over. Terrible discipline on his part.
It took me 79 minutes to get worked up enough to tell at the TV, that was the moment. Ofa lieing there like a stiff corpse.
What a tough tense match. Shocking conditions, the Poms were committed and played right on the line (and a fair amount over it), they played their game about as well as they could in the first 40. They negated our game for the most part of the first half. We were far from perfect, the last pass option let us down a couple of time, but we deserved the win. After all that time offside it was fitting that we finally got a decision to go our way with the disallowed try. Plenty to work on as they say, but a good hard game that we did well to win
@victor-meldrew said in England vs All Blacks:
The first Test match I went to was a "must win" 3rd Test against the Lions in '71 (I was young...). I was also at Cardiff in '07 for the "must win" Quarter Final against France...
I'm at Twickenham next week for the AB's v England.
The Curse of the Meldrews. Be afraid, be very afraid.
Curse of the Meldrews trumped by Aura.
@snowy said in England vs All Blacks:
I thought that the whole offside thing was justice for them being offside many other times during the match. They only got called on it because it led to a try. It should have happened several times earlier.
What Snowy said.
I counted 6 very clear offsides not called against England during the game.
Plus, not so much justice with the offsides call wrt the try, just finally the right call made.
Kudos to the TMO.