The problem for the All Blacks is the coaching
All the ritual quibbling about whether this player or that player would have made a difference in the starting line-up or on the bench is a pointless exercise. The truth is that New Zealand rugby has slowly been giving away its intellectual and physical capital to the rest of the rugby world over the last few years.
Ireland was brought to this point over recent years - in part - by Kiwi IP as well as by player imports. Four of 23 players in today’s game were New Zealanders. This influence of the Kiwi coaching and playing diaspora is also evident in many other international sides, so much so that it is now clear that the brain and brawn drain overseas, itself a legacy of a golden era for the All Blacks, is starting to tell.
Now, under private equity ownership, New Zealand rugby is about to cannibalise itself further, devaluing the brand with money-raising farces like the US and Welsh B matches. The rugby hierarchy there must, surely, now accept that some of the best brains and talent is outside the country and will have to be imported. Instead, a self-satisfied NZR made the cardinal error of not going for renewal after the last World Cup. The lack of fresh ideas against rush defence is the result.
I wonder, also, whether the disruptions from COVID have had an impact, leading to lopsided results against second and third tier countries (Fiji, Tonga, USA) and too many games against Australia, where the code is dying a slow and painful death. The consequence has been atrophy in the forwards, particularly the tight five.
Yet the coaching brains trust has been reminded now on several occasions since the ABs were outmuscled by England at the World Cup of this danger and have been unable to respond. They’ve lost to Ireland now three times in recent years, after not losing in a century before that. They’ve lost to Argentina for the first time in history. And they’ve been exposed by South Africa. Yet, there is still no effective response to the rush defence; still no consistency in selections; still no sign of a Plan B.
On the playing side, yes there is a much discussed lack of an effective inside centre, a quality inheritor to Aaron Smith at halfback, an established dominant blindside, a new generation of locks. But personnel really isn’t the major problem here. The Kiwis playing for Ireland, after all, were all Super Rugby cast-offs, yet they outshone their opposites - particularly James Lowe against Sevu Reece and Gibson-Park against TJP.
It is now plainly evident that the problem for the All Blacks is in the coaching and management set-up. We’ve had two years of tinkering and moving the deck chairs since the Yokohama debacle. It is very hard not to conclude that without a change of coach, this ship is going down.
I hope someone asks Foster if he should resign. A hard hitting question from a journalist. No structure at all. No control in the forwards. Total failure. Notice how our 2nd half try came off front foot ball in the forwards. We have learned nothing but who of us had high hopes for Foster.
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Lowe and JGP are Maori. Not white guys with Irish grannies but Maori, facing the haka and winning. Fucking hilarious. This is the future the NZRU chose with Foster.
Not sure Foster can take this blame.
Watching them celebrate as hard as they did really tore into me.
It really really hurt.
@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I hope someone asks Foster if he should resign. A hard hitting question from a journalist. No structure at all. No control in the forwards. Total failure. Notice how our 2nd half try came off front foot ball in the forwards. We have learned nothing but who of us had high hopes for Foster.
NZ Covid journalism doesn’t raise hope.
@broughie
According to some posters on here, it isn't his fault. Let's just accept mediocrity and go gently into that goodnight.
Players are selected and do what they are told for the most part. Foster has zero success as a head coach. As another poster said, who is chasing him outside NZ? No one, because he is shaite.
Let's go the Aussie route with cricket and League if we are accepting this level of coaching.
@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I hope someone asks Foster if he should resign. A hard hitting question from a journalist. No structure at all. No control in the forwards. Total failure. Notice how our 2nd half try came off front foot ball in the forwards. We have learned nothing but who of us had high hopes for Foster.
He's waited too long to simply give it away. And the NZRFU gave him the job, they are not in the business of firing coaches early
I have been forgiving of Foster until now but no more.
This AB coaching setup is fucked.
The reason the ABs defence had to make so many tackles is because the defensive system sucks. The defence scrambles well but it's the same passive shit from McLeod - their defence doesn't put pressure on the opposition and it doesn't turn over the ball enough. So it just means the opposition can just rack up phase after phase.
Taylor plays average all year for the ABs but of course he gets the automatic start despite Samisoni and Coles being both better options.
Very impressive kiwi halfback display - unfortunately he was playing for Ireland.
It's hard to think of many positives. Akira I think is suited to coming off the bench and showed that. Papalii I thought was good (although he doesn't get enough turnovers). Jordie was good. Jordan with a magic play.
Whitelock made the wrong call to take 3 after the Akira try got ruled out in my opinion. Should have gone the try.
Ireland deserved winners.
@kiwimurph it was telling that Ireland turned down several pens and we turned down that opportunity to go for a try. 20/20 in hindsight I know
@no-quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Despite Ireland's dominance we managed to claw our way back into the game, and were a very marginal forward pass call away from taking the lead. Further to that, in the lead up to the disallowed try there were two YC offenses from the Irish - a high shot on Rieko and then a professional foul sealing the ball off on their own line. A YC would have changed the dynamics of the game.
We were outplayed but that was a period of poor officiating at a crucial stage in the match.
You could just as easily say good officiating kept us in the game by disallowing the Irish try that would have put them well ahead. We were also lucky the Blackadder didn't get a Yellow for his very late hit on Sexton. The Ref was fine, it was our performance that wasnt.
@mrdenmore player and brain drain is a natural result of our success. Few would argue that we let anyone of these players go and that they would walk into the ABs. But I think all of us would agree we are not playing to our optimal best
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore player and brain drain is a natural result of our success. Few would argue that we let anyone of these players go and that they would walk into the ABs. But I think all of us would agree we are not playing to our optimal best
Could it have something to do with coaching and gameplans that gets the most out of those kiwis that go offshore? Gibson-Park was clearly the best 9 out there tonight and Aki shits all over our 12s at the moment.
@mrdenmore said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
It is now plainly evident that the problem for the All Blacks is in the coaching and management set-up. We’ve had two years of tinkering and moving the deck chairs since the Yokohama debacle. It is very hard not to conclude that without a change of coach, this ship is going down.
You're right, but I think most of us have given up hope that any change will happen in the coaching and management set up before the world cup. At least Foster will be around - maybe he can convince someone else to join the management team.
This only really leaves us with our somewhat ineffectual tinkering we'd like to do with the starting lineup
@chimoaus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore player and brain drain is a natural result of our success. Few would argue that we let anyone of these players go and that they would walk into the ABs. But I think all of us would agree we are not playing to our optimal best
Could it have something to do with coaching and gameplans that gets the most out of those kiwis that go offshore? Gibson-Park was clearly the best 9 out there tonight and Aki shits all over our 12s at the moment.
Absolutely. I don't even remember Gibson-Park, he didn't seem to be on the radar in NZ. Lowe was a journeyman at best. Aki has been strong for Ireland for years. All have been made greater than the players they were when they left
@kiwimurph yep we have learnt nothing in the past 5 years, our play has stagnated.
Our attack is poor, our defence is poor, our phase play is poor, our cohesion is poor.
Since being exposed to a well drilled rush defence in 2016 and largely struggling to unlock it ever since, why is it we haven't employed it over the passive pattern we have used for at least 2 years now...
We also continue to shoehorn players into positions.
Play Ardie at 7 ffs, play an 8 at 8...need to be looking at all the 12s in super next year and really invest in them, and pick someone who is playing 12.
Tupaea has shown promise but not enough to say I'm the answer.
Why have all our props lost those soft skills and the ability to run?
We also need to recognise when a player is done and unable to do the job consistently.
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Sickens me all the cowards who accept Foster as inevitable till after 2023. He can be gone by tomorrow if not for them.
Which cowards are these? I don't see anyone here happy with Foster. But our opinion doesn't matter anyway. The NZRFU don't care what we think, or they would have chosen Razor
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan
The people keeping him in his job?
The NZRFU don't care what we think, or they would have chosen Razor. They have been making bad management decisions for some time now
My first thoughts after watching the game and without reading the thread.
Well this has been a terrible 24 hours of rugby for me. TBH, this loss didn't hurt as much as normal as I used up all my anxiety, stress and anger on the Magpies game (not helped by my Of Plenty mate sending me a loop of the forward pass try by the Invitational Baabaas Chequebook XV).
Weird that a NH ref said that a tackle in the air was only slightly in the air.
The defence on the line by the ABs late in the first half was outstanding. Also Rieko tackles like a demon, I think it's an overlooked part of his game.
Johnny Sexton takes his kick offs past the halfway line. Clearly doesn't matter in the wider scheme of things but still odd nonetheless.
The All Blacks kicking game was so average. It was just hoist a kick and hope for the best and it was a day when the best was Ireland winding up with the ball in a better position than us.
Nice play for the Jordan try by him, Rieko and Havilli with a cracking pass.
Some of the ruck penalties in the game were B/S. The match winning one O'Mahoney just lay straight on Rieko.
Whitelock's captaincy is talked up on various forums, I don't think it was very good in this match. I think taking the 3 after the Ioane bro's try was ruled out was the wrong decision, we needed to keep going for a try and we were having trouble clearing from our end of the field.
Ireland reminded me of the 03 Blues at times with the way they run close to the ball carrier and take offloads. Have to give them credit for the way they played.
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Sickens me all the cowards who accept Foster as inevitable till after 2023. He can be gone by tomorrow if not for them.
Which cowards are these? I don't see anyone here happy with Foster. But our opinion doesn't matter anyway. The NZRFU don't care what we think, or they would have chosen Razor
Disagree with the Foster comment, that's a separate discussion. He's not flawless - a damn good coach, but not the messiah.
The bigger issue is that Foster got reappointed for 2 more years before this tour. We traversed it at the time in some detail; it was a weak decision. Bet NZR aren't so stoked now.
Deeper than Foster though is the insularity of NZ rugby. Feels very monocultural, innovation becoming frowned on, and we seem to want all the same style of players in all our professional teams. Big wins don't disguise the fact that good, physical sides (SA, Lions, Ireland, England and even Argentina) have had our number for some time, and we haven't stepped up.
Also, NH rugby has really lifted since 2015. They had to get better and they did. Players are now coming back from NH with enhanced skills, fitness and physicality. Super and RC are no longer the dominant premier competitions. IT's a real worry for me - that's the long term success right there; not just the current situation.
Well done Ireland that was awesome. I loved watching you play. Hard, physical, inventive. Absolutely dominant everywhere except the scoreboard which flattered us all day. The constant ball in motion was confusing the AB defence all day, and your breakdown work was friggen excellent. A deserved dominant win built on good work both sides of the ball.
As for the ABS, fucking LOL. Talk about hammered boy. Picking an entire side of guys who can't make a dominant tackle, or get over the gain line, or be physical at the breakdown is certainly one way to play. Was the plan to confuse them by letting them have too much ball? We could not stop them doing what they wanted. Conversely when we had the ball we could do shit because we couldn't get past the gain line
So we kicked it, poorly. Over and over again. Because that's all that Ireland gave us.
Scored a couple of really pretty tries though. Jordan's a fucking star. The first was a hilarious piece of defence we ruthlessly exploited. The 2nd came out of absolute nothing.
The loose forwards were shit. They should be embarrassed the only guy who put a hit on was fucking TJP. Savea is just a non-entity in a game like this. Just a waste of space. The other two tried but just didn't have the ability.
This is humbling and shows exactly where we are. Which is nowhere.
@chimoaus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Wow, that is how you play rugby, Ireland take a bow, that was a pleasure to watch. That blueprint it how we should be playing the game.
We don't have the players
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph yep we have learnt nothing in the past 5 years, our play has stagnated.
Our attack is poor, our defence is poor, our phase play is poor, our cohesion is poor.
Since being exposed to a well drilled rush defence in 2016 and largely struggling to unlock it ever since, why is it we haven't employed it over the passive pattern we have used for at least 2 years now...
Not so sure that our defence is poor. It is a different style though and teams that don't make errors can do OK against it. We actively look to isolate and turn over possession then use it against an unset defence.
If the opposition play well and don't make errors though we are the ones that end up under pressure.
We also continue to shoehorn players into positions.
Play Ardie at 7 ffs, play an 8 at 8...
I have no idea why Jacobsen has lost the eye of the coaches. Only thought is what you say. Trying to have DP and Ardie playing together.
need to be looking at all the 12s in super next year and really invest in them, and pick someone who is playing 12.
Tupaea has shown promise but not enough to say I'm the answer.
DH was a stopgap and Tupaea is a project. We need to persist with Tupaea, get Goodhue back and hope the Canes see fit to play PUJ
Why have all our props lost those soft skills and the ability to run?
Because they keep selecting the ancient ones (see your next point)
We also need to recognise when a player is done and unable to do the job consistently.
@mariner4life I think we do (aside from lacking ball running props) think how they are being coached to play in whatever patterns they have to play within is a huge issue, both sides of the.ball.
A 7 playing 8, 2 6.5s at 7 and 6, a 11 at 13, a 13 at 12, a 15 at 12.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
As for the ABS, fucking LOL. Talk about hammered boy. Picking an entire side of guys who can't make a dominant tackle, or get over the gain line, or be physical at the breakdown is certainly one way to play. Was the plan to confuse them by letting them have too much ball? We could not stop them doing what they wanted. Conversely when we had the ball we could do shit because we couldn't get past the gain line
It's rather frustrating to see the ABs continually playing the Highlanders' "make 200 tackles, and one in three games we'll get lucky and win because the opposition will make a lot of mistakes" game plan.
Thats the plan to go along with selecting three open-sides, two has-been locks, and three plodders in the front row. The Highlanders tend to be more aggressive at the ruck, and have better line speed, though.
@crucial said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I have no idea why Jacobsen has lost the eye of the coaches.
Has barely hit a ruck in his last two games. Looks well below test level.
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Retallick shouldn't have come straight back into the ABs.
When one of the main alternatives was Tuipulotu you can understand why they wanted him back ASAP.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Savea is just a non-entity in a game like this.
Massively overrated ... in New Zealand. Not going to hit rucks physically, or do much off static ball.
Glad I got up at 5am to watch that before the kids woke up.
What fucking balls, complete comedy. Ireland were really, really good, no doubt. Get everything out of their guys., earned everything they got.
We are the total opposite, determined to play pretty rugby and expect a superstar moment to bring it home every time.
Set piece sucked, defense was passive, attack not direct. Why are we so unable to kick for corners and pressure set piece? Why can't we show some patience and string together more than 3 phases before a fucking cross kick?
@tim would be fine if he started at 7 with a ball running 8 and a physically punishing 6.
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
The constant fuck up here is the Coaching staff.
The only team we seem to have a good game plan against is Australia.
Our defence is passive, our forward positioning, use, and selection is poor, and our attack and structure haven't changed for about 8 years.
We are poorly coached, and have the same problems as every other year.
Totall agree , it’s going to bad until after the WC by the looks of things,
This 4 year cycle between WCs wasted.Our loose trio (Ardie excepted) have promise but are young and inexperienced. Tight 5 are not the force they once were. We lack a dominant controlling 10 and our midfield is a puzzle yet to be solved. Lean days for ABs supporters right now
We could have Dan Carter there and we'd still be farked. What options do our 10s have? They get zero time or space. So they can hold on and get smashed, pop it to a forward to get smashed behind the gain line or throw it wide and always risk an intercept. BB and RM would have blown their load at the service and options Sexton had.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@tim would be fine if he started at 7 with a ball running 8 and a physically punishing 6.
Would be a lot better coming off the bench when the game opens up.
Super rugby aotearoa hos hidden so much. We have these games that are flat out, everyone wants themselves about how they are "test match intensity" and we talk up thr talent we have, and the huge depth
And as soon as we play someone who plays a bit different we get smacked, and realise we build, and wank over, players that do not measure up to modern top level test rugby.
We have to pick old locks because there is no one else. And we are not building any either. And out domestic coaching isn't either. The entire system has lost its way.
@mariner4life We were poor against Wales B last week, our forwards in the first half particularly. Yet everyone in the media and elsewhere stroked themselves off over a poor win over a poor team.