Is this the changing of the guard?
I wouldn’t go quite that far yet, simply because the Crusaders have history, quality across the park, a fantastic coaching team, and suffered from a lack of players for a significant amount of time in this game due to Scott Barrett stupidity.
However, a Blues win in Christchurch breaks the Spencer curse and suggests that finally the cracks in the Saders armor might be problematic; principally they have recently been giving up points after scoring themselves, which is very un-Crusaders like.
Furthermore, the Blues are starting to show some steel; the defense is beginning to be trustworthy. Even if it seems suicidal to kick to the most dangerous back three in the competition, they somehow managed to hold on. They held out the Saders for the final five minutes – when I was sure they would concede a try. Looking at the game stats, the Saders had plenty of opportunities too, with 57% possession and 58% territory, including winning 100% of their ball at setpiece. There is nothing off with their performance except two acts of stupidity from Barrett and Havili – and perhaps an 86% tackle percentage (120/139). They had more ball (118 vs 85), ran more metres (451 vs.372), and kicked less but better than the Blues.
Nevertheless, the Blues won. Although it was a team effort, certain players stood out. As I wrote in the MOTM thread, Dalton Papalii has fully arrived as the successor to Cane. He was the best player on the park, he ran for 52 with 6 defenders beaten and two clean breaks. He made 21 tackles (with none missed) and lead the team without having to ask the coaches for help.
While Rieko only ran for 17 metres, his defense was fucking unbelievable . He made 16 tackles including some absolute try savers (2 missed) and I can see why the AB coaches might see him as a weapon at 13 not only for his proficiency on turnover ball on attack, but also the speed with which he can cover on defence.
It was likely the winning the of the game. As I wrote on the MOTM thread, I’m now fully convinced he is the answer at 13, so the question is who to match him with at 12. Havili was pretty awesome for the Sader tonight, but is he the right mix with Rieko. In memory of the Baron, ‘plrase discuss’.
We need a TH prop that can run and play on the ball. Ofa – tonight - was exactly what we need. He ran for 38 metres, conceded no penalties, and didn’t miss a tackle. Many of his runs led to breaks as well.
As many have mentioned, lots of others were good too (Sotutu 15 made, none missed; Romano 12 made, 1 missed) but I think that those three stand apart.
For the Saders, it’s probably a wake-up call and I still believe they are the favorites. Simply put, their championship pedigree is not something to ignore from one defeat. They have the most exciting player in NZ rugby in Will Jordan and they use him well (152 metres, 11 runs, 17 passes, 3 clean break, 7 defenders beaten, 5 made and 1 missed, although the three turnovers are still a small issue).
They’ve found an exciting new lock in Gallagher (Gallawillis) who made 15 and missed 1 and looks like he has been playing at this level for years. They always looked like they’d steal it at the end, only being thwarted thanks to an incredible chase and tackle by Ioane and Papalii.
Beyond that, their spine stood up well in the fightback – Mo’unga was dangerous with 8 defenders beaten (although his defence was also exposed a bit in this game, while Taylor and Grace were strong with 22 carries between them.
Looking towards the finals, you have to expect these teams to see each other again and I cannot fucking wait.
@kirwan said in Crusaders v Blues:
@bones said in Crusaders v Blues:
@tim said in Crusaders v Blues:
@bones This is getting rather tedious.
I agree, not sure why Barrett is getting a pass for poor play.
The two trys he set up and good goal kicking? You know, stuff that won us the game.
Cheeky sky UK! Knew it was too good to be true they were actually showing SRP. The game they showed here had most of that occuring before Perofeta went off. Uk version had the crusaders storming back into contention from bizarre blues play.
@dan54 said in Crusaders v Blues:
I am prepared to say I pretty keen to see Dalton have a run at 6 sometime, in saying that he was brilliant tonight at 7.
Agreed. ABs need to try Dalton at 6. Thought Robinson shaded Blackadder.
@victor-meldrew said in Crusaders v Blues:
@machpants said in Crusaders v Blues:
@antipodean said in Crusaders v Blues:
Surely Jordan has to be the All Black fullback? He needs to get his hands on the ball more in Test rugby.
Not decent international teams ten are going to kick it to him as much as beaudy did
BB's kicking and/or the Blues tactics in the last quarter were awful.
Apart from that, dunno who was the better 10 tonight - BB or Ritchie.
Only take away for me is (from the first 50) Beauds still has it and when both on form, has less weaknesses (Mounga has opposition plays dedicated to his defence).
Mounga against a tiring defence has the tip over Beauds though for me.
@kirwan said in Crusaders v Blues:
FC must be the form halfback in the country too.
He looked pretty much at home in the black jersey after stepping up last year.
Be great if he carries that form into the ABs.
@kiwimurph said in Crusaders v Blues:
@dan54 said in Crusaders v Blues:
I am prepared to say I pretty keen to see Dalton have a run at 6 sometime, in saying that he was brilliant tonight at 7.
Agreed. ABs need to try Dalton at 6. Thought Robinson shaded Blackadder.
I want him at 7. Cane on the bench.
@victor-meldrew said in Crusaders v Blues:
@machpants said in Crusaders v Blues:
@antipodean said in Crusaders v Blues:
Surely Jordan has to be the All Black fullback? He needs to get his hands on the ball more in Test rugby.
Not decent international teams ten are going to kick it to him as much as beaudy did
BB's kicking and/or the Blues tactics in the last quarter were awful.
Apart from that, dunno who was the better 10 tonight - BB or Ritchie.
Mixed bag from both, but Mounga's defensive issues were glaring tonight with him missing tackles for two Blues tries. Worst of all, they came down the short channel where he was defending in order to hide his obvious defensive issues, which means of course that they simply can't be hidden.
@bones said in Crusaders v Blues:
@victor-meldrew said in Crusaders v Blues:
@machpants said in Crusaders v Blues:
@antipodean said in Crusaders v Blues:
Surely Jordan has to be the All Black fullback? He needs to get his hands on the ball more in Test rugby.
Not decent international teams ten are going to kick it to him as much as beaudy did
BB's kicking and/or the Blues tactics in the last quarter were awful.
Apart from that, dunno who was the better 10 tonight - BB or Ritchie.
Only take away for me is (from the first 50) Beauds still has it and when both on form, has less weaknesses (Mounga has opposition plays dedicated to his defence).
Mounga against a tiring defence has the tip over Beauds though for me.
Yeah, this game again reinforced that Beauden is our starting 10 with Mo'unga on the bench. I don't think either can control a test match, but Beauden is very solid on defense and can create something from nothing, and Mo'unga only ever thrives when the game opens up and he has a bit more space - in test matches that's the final 10 - 15 mins.
@no-quarter said in Crusaders v Blues:
@bones said in Crusaders v Blues:
@victor-meldrew said in Crusaders v Blues:
@machpants said in Crusaders v Blues:
@antipodean said in Crusaders v Blues:
Surely Jordan has to be the All Black fullback? He needs to get his hands on the ball more in Test rugby.
Not decent international teams ten are going to kick it to him as much as beaudy did
BB's kicking and/or the Blues tactics in the last quarter were awful.
Apart from that, dunno who was the better 10 tonight - BB or Ritchie.
Only take away for me is (from the first 50) Beauds still has it and when both on form, has less weaknesses (Mounga has opposition plays dedicated to his defence).
Mounga against a tiring defence has the tip over Beauds though for me.
Yeah, this game again reinforced that Beauden is our starting 10 with Mo'unga on the bench. I don't think either can control a test match, but Beauden is very solid on defense and can create something from nothing, and Mo'unga only ever thrives when the game opens up and he has a bit more space - in test matches that's the final 10 - 15 mins.
Yep, BB is great on defence (awesome on cover-defence) and creativity as you say, but he's always gives the impression of being a bit flaky when under pressure. Big advantage for bringing Ritchie on in the last 20 mins is I want him kicking any match-wining goal rather than BB.
A lot of posts about dalton and sotutu but I thought Robinson was outstanding in the first half. His ruck clear outs were top class: efficient, accurate, repetitive.
I like Leicester but he has to have a Reece work rate if he wants higher honours.
Provided the selectors make the right choices the ABs should have a good team. They really need to back the younger props coming thru. Ofa was great for the blues but the crusaders newell was also very good when he came on.
Crusaders are really missing a genuine top class loose forward. Best of the bunch is probably blackadder but grace is all sorts of meh.
What a game! I am a Crusaders fan but you could not dislike that game from any perspective. Well done to the Blues. The AB discussion will be even more heated after this game.
For the Blues, Barrett, Ofa, and Dalton were simply outstanding. It is so good from an AB perspective to see Ofa play like that.
For the Crusaders, Jordan was great, and it is good to see Mounga (who I have been critical of this year) get his mojo back. He positional kicking game was the best I have seen from him.
Who would bet against these teams meeting again?
@victor-meldrew said in Crusaders v Blues:
@no-quarter said in Crusaders v Blues:
@bones said in Crusaders v Blues:
@victor-meldrew said in Crusaders v Blues:
@machpants said in Crusaders v Blues:
@antipodean said in Crusaders v Blues:
Surely Jordan has to be the All Black fullback? He needs to get his hands on the ball more in Test rugby.
Not decent international teams ten are going to kick it to him as much as beaudy did
BB's kicking and/or the Blues tactics in the last quarter were awful.
Apart from that, dunno who was the better 10 tonight - BB or Ritchie.
Only take away for me is (from the first 50) Beauds still has it and when both on form, has less weaknesses (Mounga has opposition plays dedicated to his defence).
Mounga against a tiring defence has the tip over Beauds though for me.
Yeah, this game again reinforced that Beauden is our starting 10 with Mo'unga on the bench. I don't think either can control a test match, but Beauden is very solid on defense and can create something from nothing, and Mo'unga only ever thrives when the game opens up and he has a bit more space - in test matches that's the final 10 - 15 mins.
Yep, BB is great on defence (awesome on cover-defence) and creativity as you say, but he's always gives the impression of being a bit flaky when under pressure. Big advantage for bringing Ritchie on in the last 20 mins is I want him kicking any match-wining goal rather than BB.
Jordie will be kicking for the ABs. Better than both of them.
@billy-tell said in Crusaders v Blues:
Provided the selectors make the right choices the ABs should have a good team.
While Foster has done a good job developing players, the big issue is going to be getting the right 6/7/8 combination. Be interesting to see how how Akira Ioane goes when he returns.
Crusaders are really missing a genuine top class loose forward.
Thought Blackadder was average today compared to the Blues loose 3 (outstanding) but think he's got great potential
Both Grace and Sotutu have been playing really well. Sotutu used to go missing when the physicality was ramped up but this year has really stamped his mark, one of the best on the park in the last few games. I get the feeling both these players will be wearing black and having some real ding-dong battles.
@gt12 I think rather thank chinks in the Crusader armour it is the rise of the blues.
Let's not forget they had about 25 odd mins with 14 players and few with 13, and scored while down too.
For me this will hopefully light a fire with the Crusaders and Blues, plus we have the Chiefs bubbling under capable on thier day of beating them too...suddenly with some of the play and way we played, there is hope.when these fellas.pull on black.
Both teams played some great code last night.
@taniwharugby I disagree about the crusaders.
You saw it last year or two, they don't have the cattle they used to. The legacy and coaching gets them so far, but it's not everything.
Last year they were in a real contest at Eden Park and a couple of tries blew out the scoreline. They were massively up for that game, but drew against the hurricanes the week after and then lost the week after. Then struggled through the Australian games and didn't make the final.
This year they've been playing poorly and winning, until last night where they really stepped up, but lost.
@nzzp tbf they haven't had to step up much and still win, they were doing what they needed to, which is what good sides do, maybe lacking a ruthless edge though.
Don't get me wrong they aren't up there with some of the great crusader sides, but they are still a very good side, and how often are good teams dragged down to the level of the opposition, which tbf ain't been that great in recent times
But last night they were ready for a different Blues team, and stepped up, as above, I hope this lights thier fire to move up a notch now which will push the blues too, in turn driving the Chiefs and hopefully those other 3 teams too ?
@bovidae said in Crusaders v Blues:
I bet Jackson and Burke don't even take the field.
As I predicted. 
@duluth said in Crusaders v Blues:
Blues loosies got through plenty of tackles
Robinson 10 (2 misses)
Papali'i 21 (0 misses)
Sotutu 15 (0 misses)Worth mentioning Ioanes defensive game too: 16 tackles, 2 misses. That's an usually high number of tackles for a centre
One stat site had Sotutu at 20 tackles and Papali’i at 23.
@billy-tell said in Crusaders v Blues:
A lot of posts about dalton and sotutu but I thought Robinson was outstanding in the first half. His ruck clear outs were top class: efficient, accurate, repetitive.
I like Leicester but he has to have a Reece work rate if he wants higher honours.
Provided the selectors make the right choices the ABs should have a good team. They really need to back the younger props coming thru. Ofa was great for the blues but the crusaders newell was also very good when he came on.
Crusaders are really missing a genuine top class loose forward. Best of the bunch is probably blackadder but grace is all sorts of meh.
@billy-tell said in Crusaders v Blues:
crusaders newell was also very good when he came on.
In the lead up to that tackle on Gardiner in the corner there was a passage of play where Newell was barging towards the line with a couple of Blues on him. He was being assisted by a Crusader I think. Anyway, a third Blue just managed to keep hold of Newell's foot when Newell had momentum and was a metre or so from the line. That was a definite try saving effort. And this was a long winded way of saying yep, I agree, Newell did well.
@bovidae said in Crusaders v Blues:
Every other NZ team has beaten the Crusaders in Christchurch in recent years so this isn't exactly a new phenomenon.
Look at these Chiefs supporters trying to minimise the Blues moment in the sun, breaking an 18 year hoodoo….
@tim said in Crusaders v Blues:
Just saw Hodgman up and talking to the fans. Hopefully a good sign!
Surely sitting a few out though.
Hopefully less than Barrett ...
@bovidae said in Crusaders v Blues:
Those talking up Perofeta for the ABs were premature. He showed a lack of big game temperament in this game.
Papali'i - the best player on the field.
I'm going to praise Fraser as well, who didn't get fooled by either team trying to milk penalties.
No idea how the commentary was I didn't listen to it!
Nah. Still think he's been the next best 10, and went ok.
Compare his efforts to Mo'unga who also missed kicks and tackles.
Edit: was not previously a fan.
@bovidae said in Crusaders v Blues:
Every other NZ team has beaten the Crusaders in Christchurch in recent years so this isn't exactly a new phenomenon.
Nope. To me the difference is the crusaders playing poorly and losing, and them targeting a game, getting up for it, playing well and then losing.
@booboo Parsons predicted Perofeta to make the ABs in his season preview. Will be interesting to see if he gets a shot - another who might go up a level after being in the system.
While it turned into a very good game in the end, I still think the cards spoiled it a bit in terms of knowing where each team is really at in relation to the other. I suspect the Blues have their noses in front based on the play before the two cards, but we still have to keep in mind the Blues very nearly let this game slip/the Crusaders very nearly won.
@taniwharugby they are really good, but sides will back themselves to get up. Their ceiling isn't what past sides have been.
More importantly, the conveyor belt of talent is weaker than it's been for ages
@booboo said in Crusaders v Blues:
Nah. Still think he's been the next best 10, and went ok.
Didn't watch too much of him last year, but he seems to be turning into a pretty mature player. Not his best game today, but he'll learn from that.
@tim I think Foster will want to have a good look at him in the AB camp at the very least and to give Foster some credit, he has done well picking and handling new ABs
I've only seen a YouTube highlights package but have to say well played to the Blues, a deserved win. Papali'i clearly the star turn in either forward pack but Jordan seems to have also had another big night. It's now a Papali'i vs Savea debate for mine.
As an aside, I was quite dismayed by the lack of gas shown by Dom Gardiner as he pretty much lumbered towards the corner. He had a head start and the angle from around 22 out but was easily mown down well short of the corner. He's supposed to be a 6 (albeit covering lock in this 23) and should be able to make more of a contest of that situation.
@nzzp said in Crusaders v Blues:
@taniwharugby they are really good, but sides will back themselves to get up. Their ceiling isn't what past sides have been.
More importantly, the conveyor belt of talent is weaker than it's been for ages
Agree, I and other Sader fans have been beating this drum for a while now. There is not the depth there once was and there are some positions where the starters are just Super level at best. In saying that a couple of youngsters have popped their heads up high enough this year to suggest that there is still some talent coming through.
@shark said in Crusaders v Blues:
I've only seen a YouTube highlights package but have to say well played to the Blues, a deserved win. Papali'i clearly the star turn in either forward pack but Jordan seems to have also had another big night. It's now a Papali'i vs Savea debate for mine.
As an aside, I was quite dismayed by the lack of gas shown by Dom Gardiner as he pretty much lumbered towards the corner. He had a head start and the angle from around 22 out but was easily mown down well short of the corner. He's supposed to be a 6 (albeit covering lock in this 23) and should be able to make more of a contest of that situation.
It was Ioane who was chasing him.
@crazy-horse said in Crusaders v Blues:
@nzzp said in Crusaders v Blues:
@taniwharugby they are really good, but sides will back themselves to get up. Their ceiling isn't what past sides have been.
More importantly, the conveyor belt of talent is weaker than it's been for ages
Agree, I and other Sader fans have been beating this drum for a while now. There is not the depth there once was and there are some positions where the starters are just Super level at best. In saying that a couple of youngsters have popped their heads up high enough this year to suggest that there is still some talent coming through.
Yes and no. I don't think we're any worse off than any other side in terms of fringe or even inadequate players. The depth is not what it once was. There are literally dozens of players in and around the squads these days who never would have had a look in before we started losing substantial quantities of players overseas, combined with vast inexperience as lots of U20s are pressed immediately into service. Looking at our side last night, the only areas we were a bit exposed were at lock / lock cover and hooker cover. But even at lock, Gallagher looks immediately at home. Compare that to the Blues sporting the likes of Eklund, old man Romano, Goodhue, Lam, Lay, Choat and Heem, none of whom would have been required in Super Rugby's hey day, and we look a cut above, on paper.