Performances vs Argentina II
FWIW, I can see why people are criticising Blackadder, but there's something to work with there. Hes a handy player to have in the squad and there's far more upside in his game than Frizzell. I think he'll go better in his next start but probably wouldn't have him in my strongest 23 just yet, but still, far better than last years options Grace and Frizzell who both should never have been anywhere near the squad.
I remember saying after his debut that Taukeiaho is the future and its definitely looking that way. Going forward, I would actually like him and Aumua in our 23 with Taukeiaho starting as his set piece work is far better than Aumua (which Aumua will no doubt improve at) but they sure do get through a lot of work and its effective work as well. Both strong on the carry and hit hard on d.
Nothing against Taylor as he's done fairly well in the past, but his form has dipped in the last season or 2 in Black and I'd probably have him as 4th choice now (shows our depth there at the same time). Coles imo, still has a bit to offer and will keep the 2 youngsters honest.
Am I the only one who was very impressed with Vaai? Every time he carried he busted over the advantage line and got us good go forward. I thought he out performed Tuipulotu and is certainly more mobile around the field than Tuipulotu who for me, is no more than a 20 minute player at test level but for me, is the 5th choice lock. Hes a bit slow getting off the deck and is slow to get into defensive position. He'll get caught out in d against a quicker side with halfbacks that will snipe around the ruck and play at a quicker tempo, similar to Luke Romano a few years back, which i feel Tuipulotu is these days, which is another version of Romano. His physicality is also less prominent at the highest level where more often than not he gets caught either on or behind the advantage line with ball in hand. Funnily enough, I think Japanese rugby will help him which usually isn't the case with our big men, as it might speed him up a bit around the field.
Sotutu was back to his best I thought. He picked his moments when to pick and go, targeting the lazy Argies ruck defence and did it brilliantly which led to the first try. Hes been guilty for me of overplaying his hand a lot of the time and trying to pull off the miracle plays but yesterday, he rained it in and we saw how good he can be when he uses his brain. His work off the back of the scrum was also top notch for me, where he got us out of trouble with his carries, as well as playing a part in Perenara's first half try with his work off our attacking scrum. Again, not quite in our strongest starting 23, but he provides good competition for the starters.
Is it just me or has Lomax improved out of sight from last year? He was very strong at scrum time and I like what he brings in the tight (even though he plays on the edge traditionally) but yeah, been really impressed with his game of late. I never thought too much of him in the past, but he looks a much better than what I've seen of him previously and is miles ahead of Ta'avao imo. With Tu'ungafasi's injury record of late, I think Lomax should be there if any injuries occur especially against the bigger more physical sides. Ta'avao is not test standard for me as he is a poor scrummager and is not even effective around the field as he misses tackles and doesn't really carry which is a must for an impact player. I'd consider him as nothing more than an ok Super Rugby player.
Sad to say that I can't see Christie lasting beyond this year as an AB. He didn't seem to enjoy the Argies pressure at ruck and set piece time. He wasn't terrible, but he looks a bit fragile out there and will get monstered out there with teams that apply pressure at breakdown time. He tries to play at a quick tempo similar to McDermott for the Wallabies, but lacks a Smith type pass and strength to give himself time in contact when in trouble like Perenara has to be considered a real option at test level, and has no real box kick or any kicking game in general. Still, good to have him if shit hits the fan in that position.
Was impressed with McKenzie and Tupaea. McKenzie didn't overplay his hand which was key and played very flat, getting our runners hitting the ball at pace which kept the argies defence guessing, as its not usually what we see from him. He looked very assured out there and him, Tupaea and Rieko looked very comfortable working together.
We saw another side to McKenzie game last night and showed that he can be a quality 10 at test level when he uses his brain and doesn't try and score off every play, similar to Sotutu. I feel you can only take 2 out of him, Barrett and Mo'unga in the starting 23 and before this test it would have been Barretg and Mo'unga off the bench, but with McKenzie being the more versatile out of the 2 and proving that he can be effective as a 1st receiver, maybe Mo'unga misses out in the future? Good problem to have having said that.
George Bridge is a funny one. Not a fan of his usually, but would be be worth starting against the Boks next week? He'd nullify De Klerk's box kick. Yes he's ineffective in the contact despite his efforts to get his hands on the ball, can get caught out on d but went ok last night, but he goes alright in the air. He's a safe option, something you're more likely to see in a European back 3, but lacks the attacking spark that we like in our left wings like we have in Ioane, Clarke and Faianganuku where they can smash themselves over the advantage line. Maybe a start next week for him however to blunt their high ball tactic for one of the fern favorites? Even if he only plays the first 50, I wouldn't complain, before bringing/ shifing Ioane/Reece to the left wing (I'd have Reece kn the bench) to finish the game. Food for thought anyway. A solid, without being spectacular outing from our George last night.
@booboo cantabs have been taught to pass forward. Hope they can adapt their game for internationals.
@chris and Perenara for joining the ruck so our player was not isolated and Blackadder could pass it.
@billy-tell said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Blackadder was fine. Anyone saying he was poor is absolutely clueless about rugby. He wasn’t the best out there though that’s going too far.
They probably don't even watch rugby.
@billy-tell said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Blackadder was fine. Anyone saying he was poor is absolutely clueless about rugby. He wasn’t the best out there though that’s going too far.
Made more than a few mistakes but understandable, I guess, as he was getting thru a power of work. Gets 11/10 for effort and can only get better with a bit more experience.
Sorry missed the live game banter but at 3am I had to sleep. Bridge is good under the high ball. Can’t take that away from him. Blackadder did plenty and is worth keeping. Dmac played well but I still prefer the brute of JB at fullback. Dmac is a good back up at 1/5 and always looks better with space and on the front foot. JB should be our FB period. Only really one stupid thing he did all game. Still wished we attacked around the ruck more as they are reading is laterally. Some more old fashion pick and go. Our 12 takes in the line well. More abrasive than his size. Did real well and elusive. Great try by Argentina and it look like they were more prepared to attack. Good captains run by Ardie. Young lock did well too, not just for the tries but in all facets. More agro than PT who might not even make the team if Whitelock was available. Pretty good performance by the starters in general.
@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@canes4life said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Good win, now let’s show the Boks who’s the real no 1.
But they’re so physical. And have you seen the size of them?
Will they be at full strength though?
@african-monkey Lomax back to the form he was starting to show at the Highlanders before he left.
Keep Blackadder, his aggression just makes Frizzel all the more disappointing. He's going places.
Easy to forget Sotutu is so young.
@bones Yeah, credit goes to Plumtree for me. The forwards look great with everyone putting their hand up. The Fiji tests i feel was a real good wake up call for the side where found out a lot about the side which is quite funny as a lot of people were slating the series, but it did quite the opposite for this team.
@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@bones said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Welfare check on @Machpants please.
Surely the ABs are number one in the rankings, right?
We’re not number one until we beat England
But only if they are at "full strength"
@bones said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Hey @Machpants
New World Rugby rankings table as South Africa removed from number one
The latest world rankings will be officially published on Monday and the All Blacks are now number one
Results if Argentina game counts as home game for Argentina
1 (↑2) New Zealand 91.15 (+0.83)
2 (↓1) South Africa 90.95 (-1.54)
3 (↑5) Australia 85.65 (+1.54)
4 (↓3) England 85.44
5 (↓4) Ireland 84.85
6 France 83.87
7 Argentina 82.03 (-0.83)
If it doesn't count as home advantage
1 South Africa 90.95 (-1.54)
2 New Zealand 90.70 (+0.38)
3 (↑5) Australia 85.65 (+1.54)
4 (↓3) England 85.44
5 (↓4) Ireland 84.85
6 France 83.87
7 Argentina 82.48 (-0.38)
You'd really hope world rugby make this game neutral venue, pretty unfair on Argentina if not
@african-monkey nice post. Agree about Blackadder compared with options out there except maybe the Ginger.
Agree about the hookers. I think Taylor’s form has dropped as well and with the go forward with ST and AA it means we are on the front foot more. Lineouts I don’t remember being a problem yesterday.
Agree with Dmac covering on the bench. JB to start.
TV and Lomax were pretty good and I am with you in him replacing PT.
Understand the safety of Bridge but you lost me there. Did not do anything wrong but not in my starting 23.
@tj said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Some really harsh opinions on Blackadder. I thought he had a really strong first 60 and then got a bit sloppy in the last 20, but I'm happy to put that down to being absolutely cooked. I was really impressed with him, great squad option
looks to have a future to me even if there are workons ,
Actually I think our depth in loosies is looking excellent overall
@african-monkey said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Am I the only one who was very impressed with Vaai?
Nope. I thought he was really good today. Tons of non-spectacular, engine-room stuff alongside the try-scoring heroics. Outplayed Pat T, for sure
@tj said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Some really harsh opinions on Blackadder. I thought he had a really strong first 60 and then got a bit sloppy in the last 20, but I'm happy to put that down to being absolutely cooked. I was really impressed with him, great squad option
Except most of his missed tackles were before that, but I grant that most of his penalties were late.
He clearly has an upside and is just a rookie, but when did the standards drop so far that people just shrug off five missed tackles from a blindside flanker against a terrible team?
He’s going to get better, and I said I’d keep him in the squad. Not sure he’s a test six though, might be better at seven and he played a similar game to Ardie out ther, but was less effective making the advantage line.
He is clearly very fit, but has a long way to go before he’ll get ahead of Jacobson, Akira, Dalton, Savea and Cane when he comes back soon.
Squad wise could be the new Masoe.
@toddy said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Looks like the new Adam Thomson to me. All elbows and knees with a huge engine.
True but with far more impact. If he can improve his accuracy his work rate really is quite elite
@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@tj said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Some really harsh opinions on Blackadder. I thought he had a really strong first 60 and then got a bit sloppy in the last 20, but I'm happy to put that down to being absolutely cooked. I was really impressed with him, great squad option
Except most of his missed tackles were before that, but I grant that most of his penalties were late.
He clearly has an upside and is just a rookie, but when did the standards drop so far that people just shrug off five missed tackles from a blindside flanker against a terrible team?
He’s going to get better, and I said I’d keep him in the squad. Not sure he’s a test six though, might be better at seven and he played a similar game to Ardie out ther, but was less effective making the advantage line.
He is clearly very fit, but has a long way to go before he’ll get ahead of Jacobson, Akira, Dalton, Savea and Cane when he comes back soon.
Squad wise could be the new Masoe.
Just checking the ESPN stats, they say he's made 11 missed 4. I'm not going to go back and check at which point in the game he missed them, but I would expect at least one or 2 came in the last 20. They've also got him at 3 penalties.
I don't think he was perfect, but his positives definitely outweighed the missed tackles and penalties for me.
Definitely a good option to have come world cup time given his versatility.
@tj said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@tj said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Some really harsh opinions on Blackadder. I thought he had a really strong first 60 and then got a bit sloppy in the last 20, but I'm happy to put that down to being absolutely cooked. I was really impressed with him, great squad option
Except most of his missed tackles were before that, but I grant that most of his penalties were late.
He clearly has an upside and is just a rookie, but when did the standards drop so far that people just shrug off five missed tackles from a blindside flanker against a terrible team?
He’s going to get better, and I said I’d keep him in the squad. Not sure he’s a test six though, might be better at seven and he played a similar game to Ardie out ther, but was less effective making the advantage line.
He is clearly very fit, but has a long way to go before he’ll get ahead of Jacobson, Akira, Dalton, Savea and Cane when he comes back soon.
Squad wise could be the new Masoe.
Just checking the ESPN stats, they say he's made 11 missed 4. I'm not going to go back and check at which point in the game he missed them, but I would expect at least one or 2 came in the last 20. They've also got him at 3 penalties.
I don't think he was perfect, but his positives definitely outweighed the missed tackles and penalties for me.
Definitely a good option to have come world cup time given his versatility.
I thought he was excellent. Involved in absolutely everything, physically strong, good skill set and a ridiculous engine. Long way from Akira level but that's hardly a disgrace.
At least from where I was sitting in row 12 he looked very good.
@tj it bumped up to 12-5-4 for me after the game.
For a World Cup squad, very useful. Being immune from criticism against a very poor argue side? Nope.
@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@tj it bumped up to 12-5-4 for me after the game.
For a World Cup squad, very useful. Being immune from criticism against a very poor argue side? Nope.
Not sure anyone is saying Blackadder is immune to criticism, they are just sticking up for the kid when he has copped some over the top shit eg - the call for the end of his career because he gave away an early penalty.
@african-monkey said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@chris Geez mate a bit desperate going to the journalists to back up your point haha. They would have less knowledge than us idiots on here and we're bad enough!
FWIW, I can see why people are criticising Blackadder, but there's something to work with there. Hes a handy player to have in the squad and there's far more upside in his game than Frizzell. I think he'll go better in his next start but probably wouldn't have him in my strongest 23 just yet, but still, far better than last years options Grace and Frizzell who both should never have been anywhere near the squad.
I remember saying after his debut that Taukeiaho is the future and its definitely looking that way. Going forward, I would actually like him and Aumua in our 23 with Taukeiaho starting as his set piece work is far better than Aumua (which Aumua will no doubt improve at) but they sure do get through a lot of work and its effective work as well. Both strong on the carry and hit hard on d. Nothing against Taylor as he's done fairly well in the past, but his form has dipped in the last season or 2 in Black and I'd probably have him as 4th choice now (shows our depth there at the same time). Coles imo, still has a bit to offer and will keep the 2 youngsters honest.
Am I the only one who was very impressed with Vaai? Every time he carried he busted over the advantage line and got us good go forward. I thought he out performed Tuipulotu and is certainly more mobile around the field than Tuipulotu who for me, is no more than a 20 minute player at test level but for me, is the 5th choice lock. Hes a bit slow getting off the deck and is slow to get into defensive position. He'll get caught out in d against a quicker side with halfbacks that will snipe around the ruck and play at a quicker tempo, similar to Luke Romano a few years back, which i feel Tuipulotu is these days, which is another version of Romano. His physicality is also less prominent at the highest level where more often than not he gets caught either on or behind the advantage line with ball in hand. Funnily enough, I think Japanese rugby will help him which usually isn't the case with our big men, as it might speed him up a bit around the field.
Sotutu was back to his best I thought. He picked his moments when to pick and go, targeting the lazy Argies ruck defence and did it brilliantly which led to the first try. Hes been guilty for me of overplaying his hand a lot of the time and trying to pull off the miracle plays but yesterday, he rained it in and we saw how good he can be when he uses his brain. His work off the back of the scrum was also top notch for me, where he got us out of trouble with his carries, as well as playing a part in Perenara's first half try with his work off our attacking scrum. Again, not quite in our strongest starting 23, but he provides good competition for the starters.
Is it just me or has Lomax improved out of sight from last year? He was very strong at scrum time and I like what he brings in the tight (even though he plays on the edge traditionally) but yeah, been really impressed with his game of late. I never thought too much of him in the past, but he looks a much better than what I've seen of him previously and is miles ahead of Ta'avao imo. With Tu'ungafasi's injury record of late, I think Lomax should be there if any injuries occur especially against the bigger more physical sides. Ta'avao is not test standard for me as he is a poor scrummager and is not even effective around the field as he misses tackles and doesn't really carry which is a must for an impact player. I'd consider him as nothing more than an ok Super Rugby player.
Sad to say that I can't see Christie lasting beyond this year as an AB. He didn't seem to enjoy the Argies pressure at ruck and set piece time. He wasn't terrible, but he looks a bit fragile out there and will get monstered out there with teams that apply pressure at breakdown time. He tries to play at a quick tempo similar to McDermott for the Wallabies, but lacks a Smith type pass and strength to give himself time in contact when in trouble like Perenara has to be considered a real option at test level, and has no real box kick or any kicking game in general. Still, good to have him if shit hits the fan in that position.
Was impressed with McKenzie and Tupaea. McKenzie didn't overplay his hand which was key and played very flat, getting our runners hitting the ball at pace which kept the argies defence guessing, as its not usually what we see from him. He looked very assured out there and him, Tupaea and Rieko looked very comfortable working together. We saw another side to McKenzie game last night and showed that he can be a quality 10 at test level when he uses his brain and doesn't try and score off every play, similar to Sotutu. I feel you can only take 2 out of him, Barrett and Mo'unga in the starting 23 and before this test it would have been Barretg and Mo'unga off the bench, but with McKenzie being the more versatile out of the 2 and proving that he can be effective as a 1st receiver, maybe Mo'unga misses out in the future? Good problem to have having said that.
George Bridge is a funny one. Not a fan of his usually, but would be be worth starting against the Boks next week? He'd nullify De Klerk's box kick. Yes he's ineffective in the contact despite his efforts to get his hands on the ball, can get caught out on d but went ok last night, but he goes alright in the air. He's a safe option, something you're more likely to see in a European back 3, but lacks the attacking spark that we like in our left wings like we have in Ioane, Clarke and Faianganuku where they can smash themselves over the advantage line. Maybe a start next week for him however to blunt their high ball tactic for one of the fern favorites? Even if he only plays the first 50, I wouldn't complain, before bringing/ shifing Ioane/Reece to the left wing (I'd have Reece kn the bench) to finish the game. Food for thought anyway. A solid, without being spectacular outing from our George last night.
Someone has to stick up for the young pup,
Calling for the end to his career as a couple of people did last night was over the top,
Even Fozzie gave Blackadder big raps.
I am not saying he should be in the top 23 as yet but has something for the future and adds to our depth,
@hooroo Interesting but yes that wouldn't surprise me if they went that direction either. I personally think Barrett has more to offer and is still a world class 10. He has far more variation to his kicking game for me and challenges the line better than anyone else in world rugby. He keeps defences guessing all the time with a wider variety of play and yes, I know a lot of people say he kicks too much h at times, but you'll see it more as a long game for him as he does it more early on in games in trying to break down defences before he starts to take the line on and either run altogether or distribute.
Mo'unga is more reliant on broken play and defences losing shape, which brings in his main asset which is taking on the line, but I think Barrett has him covered on everything else. For me, Mo'unga is the perfect 20-25 minute player at test level, similar to Savea. I feel like I've said this many times on here so I won't go into too much detail on Mo'unga's game haha.
If they go with Mo'unga as the starting 10 going forward then so be it, but Barrett does have a lot to offer and I feel is criminally under rated at times.
@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@tj said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Some really harsh opinions on Blackadder. I thought he had a really strong first 60 and then got a bit sloppy in the last 20, but I'm happy to put that down to being absolutely cooked. I was really impressed with him, great squad option
Except most of his missed tackles were before that, but I grant that most of his penalties were late.
He clearly has an upside and is just a rookie, but when did the standards drop so far that people just shrug off five missed tackles from a blindside flanker against a terrible team?
He’s going to get better, and I said I’d keep him in the squad. Not sure he’s a test six though, might be better at seven and he played a similar game to Ardie out ther, but was less effective making the advantage line.
He is clearly very fit, but has a long way to go before he’ll get ahead of Jacobson, Akira, Dalton, Savea and Cane when he comes back soon.
Squad wise could be the new Masoe.
As long as he’s not the new Todd Blackadder I think we’ll all be happy
@bones said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
I swear half this Argie team have been knicked from the Lebo national team. Big nosed swarthy fluffybunnies.
If anyone else said that comment it would be racist
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Argie 10 first name: Santiago
Horan: "San Diego"
And in the intro, the AB 2nd 5 was Putaea (my spelling of his mistake). 
There is something I really like about QT, he seems very solid, makes good metres with ball in hand, doesn't push the pass, solid on D. He has the foundations to become a very good player and his partnership with ALB will only continue to improve. I look forward to seeing how the Chiefs go next year as they have some very good players if everyone is fit.
@chris said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Calling for the end to his career as a couple of people did last night was over the top,
That was me, and I wasn't saying he should never play again. I was saying that stupidly giving a pointless penalty straight after a score to let the opposition back in the game is an act that gives coaches the shits. It is the sort of thing that make coaches say Yeah, Nah - a career ending level of stupidity if that is the norm. He was not under pressure, and neither were the ABs. He's lucky Eddie wasn't coach! He has a great engine but made far too many mistakes.
Commentators and mainstream media seem to rate players on the number of times they mention their name, rather than accuracy and intelligent play. Means those grafters who are core to good test match rugby are often under rated, and those that are here there and everywhere get the points. DMac very much in this mold, normally. Rated high when really he causes his team a load of problems with the flashy shit. Not this game tho.
So yeah Ethan is a late starter at 26 and need sto get his accuracy up to feature more. Hopefully he will.
@machpants said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@chris said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Calling for the end to his career as a couple of people did last night was over the top,
That was me, and I wasn't saying he should never play again. I was saying that stupidly giving a pointless penalty straight after a score to let the opposition back in the game is an act that gives coaches the shits. It is the sort of thing that make coaches say Yeah, Nah. He's lucky Eddie wasn't coach! He has a great engine but made far too many mistakes.
Commentators and mainstream media seem to rate players on the number of times they mention their name, rather than accuracy and intelligent play. Means those grafters who are core to good test match rugby are often under rated, and those that are here there and everywhere get the points. DMac very much in this mold, normally. Rated high when really he causes his team a load of problems with the flashy shit. Not this game tho.
So yeah Ethan is a late starter at 26 and need sto get his accuracy up to feature more
Seems a reasonable post,I don't disagree with all your points.But Blackadder is a wait and see if he fine tunes his game to grow as a 6.
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
@bones said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Hell of an effort from Vaa'i to go 80, but the only time I've "seen" him is when he's dotting down. Struggling with if that's a good thing or not.
He's not much of a presence eh.
Can't say I've noticed him carrying much. Seems to be used as support.
Vaa'i was being used as a distributor with those short passes in the midfield. But he did have more carries and run metres than Tuipulotu.
@derpus said in All Blacks vs Pumas II:
Are the ABs number 1 again yet? No one is even close.
Not quite