All Blacks v Argentina II
A decent win for the All Black in the end, although the weaknesses of the team are still there for anybody to see. It was a right forwards shellacking make no mistake about that. Dominance in the scrum, dominance going forwards, and the entire forward pack a real nuisance for the Argies whenever they got the ball.
Some serious white line fever from the AB's though, they should have been out of sight by half time, but the last 5% proved lacking time and time again.
Not to take anything away from the Argies defence. It was once again, absolutely superb. However, perhaps with the hot day, and the sheer number of tackles made, things fell apart at the end.
The All Blacks option taking in the back line appeared to be abysmal, with chip kicks / cross field kicks when on the front foot. Now perhaps this was a deliberate ploy to try and get the well-drilled defence to start re-thinking themselves, and perhaps it would have worked if only the execution was somewhere above the 0.5/10 it was for the 50/50 plays.
Here the main discussion points for me
- Cane / Savea/ Ioane our next legendary backline trio? Perhaps. Savea is an outstanding player, but I'm not sure he's an 8. I think the size game in test rugby has moved on from Savea size at 8.
- Ioane was utterly superb. All match. Big, physical strong. It may "only" have been a second string RG team, but it was his coming of age at this level match. May his head issues be done with, he's a real build the team around player
- Scott Barret had one of his best games, but I'm still not sold. Tuipulotu has been my main push for a while now, but he's not had a great year. Nifty try at the end though.
- Certainly Laulala's best game that I've seen (which is probably about 4). Seriously dominant, hungry and very much so the All Black prop.
- Smith should be NZ player of the year
- Not sure who was the cross-field kick coach last year, but can we get him back? Man they were shit last night. They were damn near perfect last year.
- I'm not as harsh on Richie Mo as others. He's not afraid to take on the line and the option taking I've covered above. I'd still have him at 10.
- Our midfield is a concern. They looked bereft of ideas most of the game. I know ALB & Goodhue are excellent players, but I'm not sure the compliment each other. I'd probably prefer one with Laumape.
- Jordie Barrett. Don't think he really looked comfortable at this level this year.
- Beauden Barrett. He's on the plane to Japan already. May he come back the 2017 version.
- Will Jordan. Great 15 minutes cameo, but lets not forget he was playing guys who had played 65 minutes in 29 degree heat. Fair play to him though, took his opportunities well.
And my last point. And this one is for Nisbo. Look, we NZ rugby fans have a shoddy reputation for arrogance etc already. So, why oh why when you know your coverage is beaming globally ( Marshall mentioned everywhere it was going) would you say
"We all knew the All Blacks would bounce back, but the question was always by how much".
Seriously, WTF???
@antipodean exactly all these decisions are doing is giving players carte blanche to spoil. I mean the Argue player was preventing the ABs from taking a quick tap, an action which is penalisable even a yellow at times
@Jailbreak7 He stays because we can’t get rid of him and not because of a win in one game.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@canefan said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@Canes4life said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
Nice way to finish the year. That’s more like it.
Far from the finished article. But some promising signs
Really like the improvement in composure & patience in this game, particularly when things weren't going their way. Far less whooping and hooping - just got on with game. Senior players deserve a lot of the credit for that.
Really solid forward performance all-round. Backs need some serious thought. Mo'unga is just too inconsistent for me, BB's kicking didn't work out and not convinced by Goodhue at 13.
Another plus - the JB experiment has to end now.
Jack at 13? I wish.
@Tim said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@Victor-Meldrew Plenty of good ball too.
That's the thing
Re-watched a bit of the game and he was given an armchair ride by Nugget and the pack. And he was still poor - not even a flat-track bully.
@kpkanz said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@No-Quarter Looking at the stats i wouldnt call what Jordie did anything close to 'dominated'.
Will Jordan on the other hand 'dominated' super rugby this year.
Super Rugby Aotearoa 2020 Stats
Carries
Will Jordan - 88
Jordie Barrett - 83Clean breaks
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 15,
Jordie is not in the top 10Defenders beaten
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 39
Jordie - 6th with 22Metres made
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 724
Jordie is not in the top 10Offloads
Will Jordan - 2nd in the competition with 9
Jordie is not in the top 10Tries
Will Jordan - 1st in the competition with 6
Jordie is not in the top 10
In a pro sport where every team employs an analyst, and coaches refer to stats at every press conference and where all players have laptop "homework" those stats are damning.
Perceptions versus data. Not a besmirching of JB, but a solid case for inconsistent "hunch" selections
@Siam said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@kpkanz said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@No-Quarter Looking at the stats i wouldnt call what Jordie did anything close to 'dominated'.
Will Jordan on the other hand 'dominated' super rugby this year.
Super Rugby Aotearoa 2020 Stats
Carries
Will Jordan - 88
Jordie Barrett - 83Clean breaks
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 15,
Jordie is not in the top 10Defenders beaten
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 39
Jordie - 6th with 22Metres made
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 724
Jordie is not in the top 10Offloads
Will Jordan - 2nd in the competition with 9
Jordie is not in the top 10Tries
Will Jordan - 1st in the competition with 6
Jordie is not in the top 10In a pro sport where every team employs an analyst, and coaches refer to stats at every press conference and where all players have laptop "homework" those stats are damning.
Perceptions versus data. Not a besmirching of JB, but a solid case for inconsistent "hunch" selections
I watched Moneyball again just yesterday...
@Siam said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
Hate the kick pass ( unless Foster is recruiting Dusty Martin)
He would make a great 12. Fend, Kick, Strong gut running, unsure about distribution by hand, but geez he'd be a handful.
@Victor-Meldrew that is just pattern. What you see is the 2nd is always the guy running at the line. Jacks other strength is he stays in the pattern.
@Donsteppa said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
Coles on the wing early, what were the odds.
@Yeetyaah said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
Get off the wing and do your job Coles.
It is his job
@Siam said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@kpkanz said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@No-Quarter Looking at the stats i wouldnt call what Jordie did anything close to 'dominated'.
Will Jordan on the other hand 'dominated' super rugby this year.
Super Rugby Aotearoa 2020 Stats
Carries
Will Jordan - 88
Jordie Barrett - 83Clean breaks
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 15,
Jordie is not in the top 10Defenders beaten
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 39
Jordie - 6th with 22Metres made
Will Jordan - 1st in competition with 724
Jordie is not in the top 10Offloads
Will Jordan - 2nd in the competition with 9
Jordie is not in the top 10Tries
Will Jordan - 1st in the competition with 6
Jordie is not in the top 10In a pro sport where every team employs an analyst, and coaches refer to stats at every press conference and where all players have laptop "homework" those stats are damning.
Perceptions versus data. Not a besmirching of JB, but a solid case for inconsistent "hunch" selections
Jordie was injured for the first two games, then came back and won the Hurricanes the next four matches. Short memories. By all means back Jordan for 14 but Jordie was the MVP of SRA and should have been picked to start at full back.
@nostrildamus that is AB pattern. In structured play he runs the pattern. In unstructured play no one puts another player into better space with the timing of the pass. To say he is not a distributor is incorrect.
@Kiwiwomble That is the AB pattern not the player. Distinguish between the plays being called and the skill set of the player.
@Winger said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@kpkanz said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@Winger You mean the tight game that Jordan blew up to 38-0 when he came on?
You realise he scored 2 tries and set up the 3rd to make it 38-0 right? You know he didnt come in 80th minute right?Richie was brilliant in one game. But poor to ordinary in the others. Clarke looked a super star in his first game but not close to that level since
I prefer to form an opinion based on more than a few minutes of test rugby
Agree totally. Yes great performance at the death by Jordan when the Argies where trying to run the ball after being pounded for 70 minutes by a brutal AB attack. They opened up because they needed to, made mistakes and game over. But that was set up by no mistake AB rugby where guys were running into heavy contact for long periods of time.
We tend to demonise players who make a mistake and then go overboard on players who have a good highlights package.
@Victor-Meldrew I would prefer him at 13 because instead of being the player on the crash and the player being missed, he would be the decision maker and distributor. Those are his best skills along with D. I think they moved him in because he lacks top end pace but so did Conrad Smith and he would one of our finest.
The way rugby is played now with subs an important part of the game there has been plenty of opportunity to try things out.
Jordie at 15, Jordan at 14, Sotutu at 8 should have all been given a decent roll of the dice. Not to mention the motivation it would have brought to the table. Open side flanker shouldn't be locked in either. Sotutu - Savea - Ioane would be an option too.
@booboo said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@Donsteppa said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
Coles on the wing early, what were the odds.
@Yeetyaah said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
Get off the wing and do your job Coles.
It is his job
I’d have to rewatch a few games to double check, but my impression is that it isn’t Taylor’s job to the same degree.
That defenders of Coles often cite Fitzy from 25 years ago is instructive...
@Kirwan said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
Told you Jordan would get a cheesey try. It’s his trademark
Think it's a golf saying about better to be lucky thsn good.
Mind you helps if you're both.
@MajorRage Perhaps in the minority, but I rate NZ commentary most highly. Perhaps because they lay it on the line.
@Donsteppa i think it depends who they have, they like to station Coles wide whereas use Taylor in closer allowing someone else to hang on the wing.
Pretty sure its just how they are set up rather than Coles shirking his duties
That said, I haven't watched yet, so will be interesting to see how shit a number of players were based on comments here.
@Donsteppa said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@booboo said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@Donsteppa said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
Coles on the wing early, what were the odds.
@Yeetyaah said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
Get off the wing and do your job Coles.
It is his job
I’d have to rewatch a few games to double check, but my impression is that it isn’t Taylor’s job to the same degree.
That defenders of Coles often cite Fitzy from 25 years ago is instructive...
Wasn't so much your comment but as I've gone through the thread I'm amazed at how many seem to think he's just rocking his own tactics.
At the risk of sparking another dull anti Foster rant, he's doing exactly what the coach is asking him too.
Good point re Taylor though. May be he's not as good at it? Or has different strengths so the tactics change to suit? Or another forward takes on that role?
@Kirwan said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@bayimports said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
cheesy shite times two
Seriously, he has this knack.
Further to my comment above about being lucky ... Reece had that last year.
@booboo said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@Donsteppa said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@booboo said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@Donsteppa said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
Coles on the wing early, what were the odds.
@Yeetyaah said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
Get off the wing and do your job Coles.
It is his job
I’d have to rewatch a few games to double check, but my impression is that it isn’t Taylor’s job to the same degree.
That defenders of Coles often cite Fitzy from 25 years ago is instructive...
Wasn't so much your comment but as I've gone through the thread I'm amazed at how many seem to think he's just rocking his own tactics.
At the risk of sparking another dull anti Foster rant, he's doing exactly what the coach is asking him too.
Good point re Taylor though. May be he's not as good at it? Or has different strengths so the tactics change to suit? Or another forward takes on that role?
If it's clearly a coaching tactic, that's fine, some will like it, some won't (I don't, given Coles was the starting hooker in a tight five that got outplayed in all aspects by Argentina two weeks ago).
I sometimes wonder about the 'lack of a Plan B' that the All Blacks occasionally get thrown at them... that's on the players as well as the coaching staff, and a senior player arguably should be one of the first to react.
JB on the right wing rather than at fullback is also a coaching/selection issue, but most don't caveat their "WTF are you doing now Jordie!" live posts with that either 
@nostrildamus said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@No-Quarter said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@kpkanz said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@Winger You mean the tight game that Jordan blew up to 38-0 when he came on?
You realise he scored 2 tries and set up the 3rd to make it 38-0 right? You know he didnt come in 80th minute right?Yeah it was really fucking nail-biting stuff at 17-0, 70% possession, 80% territory and Argentina having made nearly four times as many tackles as us. So surprised that our bench players made an impact given how tight it was.
Jordan did make those tries out of nothing. He wasn't helped to some cushy tries by his team mates.
I kind of agree with @Winger 's reply to this.
His team mates forced the Argies to trying some desperate tactics. Jordan didn't make them on his own.
@MajorRage was going to question that the international audience would have got Fox comms, but you're in the UK huh? And got the Sky comms not the hosts?
@booboo said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@nostrildamus said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@No-Quarter said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@kpkanz said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@Winger You mean the tight game that Jordan blew up to 38-0 when he came on?
You realise he scored 2 tries and set up the 3rd to make it 38-0 right? You know he didnt come in 80th minute right?Yeah it was really fucking nail-biting stuff at 17-0, 70% possession, 80% territory and Argentina having made nearly four times as many tackles as us. So surprised that our bench players made an impact given how tight it was.
Jordan did make those tries out of nothing. He wasn't helped to some cushy tries by his team mates.
I kind of agree with @Winger 's reply to this.
His team mates forced the Argies to trying some desperate tactics. Jordan didn't make them on his own.
Both his tries came from good line speed that put the attack under pressure. More evidence that we have to start employing a blitz defence like what England and SA are doing. His second intercept try was special though, I don't think Jordie would have had the pace to have scored that.
@Tim poor refereeing of what's in front of them. One guy flipped, another preventing a quick tap and the final decision for a pissy "push" - all at 82 minutes!
Inconsistency has been a blight on rugby adjudication in 2020
@MN5 said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
Did Jordie and Beaudie get some sort of family discount on haircuts this week ?
Glad Scott didn’t get one
Goodhue at 13, is good defensively, runs great lines and sets his wingers up. He is wasted at 12.
Did he get any minutes at 13? I can't recall any.
Would have been interesting seeing him outside Laumape as a comparison.
Did no one notice the sly hit Coles in first half put in to Kramer's ribs? He needed attention afterwards.
@taniwharugby said in Argentina Two: Newcastle, 28 November:
@Donsteppa i think it depends who they have, they like to station Coles wide whereas use Taylor in closer allowing someone else to hang on the wing.
Pretty sure its just how they are set up rather than Coles shirking his duties
That said, I haven't watched yet, so will be interesting to see how shit a number of players were based on comments here.
Coles would have scored quite a few of his 13 test tries from that position now
Could it be at tactic to have a big defender out on the wing especially one who is good at winning turnover ball at the tackle