Well done Bokke

DISCLAIMER: have only watched the game once I thought i was a cracker, particuarly the first half.

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

How is it the Wallabies can put the Boks to the sword?

Well you can talk about the Boks "lifting" for the ABs I guess, as a few others have done.

I think first in favour of the Boks it was selection: they've played mostly the same players all tour, particularly the spine of the side, and they finally clicked in terms of lowering their error rate - that's the first key in beating the ABs. By contrast, the ABs are missing a few of their best and that hurts them in the pivot - Aaron Smith probably adds 5% to any team he's playing in.

Second point was Kwagga Smith. That guy changed the dynamic of the back row battle significantly, and gave the Boks a ruck presence they didn't have against the Wallabies. They learned from having the 2 Pommy refs against us that they needed more at ruck time in addition to Kolisi. Kwagga was MOTM for me in both games. Against us, the Boks played Mostert instead, and tried to out-do us physically, but that didn't happen because their fitness led to poor discipline.

But it must be said the main difference is game plan. Someone said on Twitter last night that the Trinations were a bit of rock/paper/scissors and to a degree, that's true.

ABs haven't changed in several years - the aim of the game is being fitter than everyone, and racking up turnover runaway tries. "You miss I hit" being the basic premise.

From where I'm sitting, they are not actually creating much except opposition mistakes to run at a fractured line, and fitness to keep doing that all game. Once the turnovers dry up, or you get the ball against a set line with a high percentage tackle success, things get sticky.

When this happens, the AB back line doesn't appear to run anything like a complex move or any subtletly with bodies in motion. They just expect something to happen.

The Boks kick it, the ABs run it back against a set line, with a structure you'd basically teach to juniors - space out, run straight, support each other at the ruck. Rarely any changes of angle or dummy runners. I can't even remember a decent cut-out pass that found the man because the Boks were just rushing it so easily.

If you're going to run wide, run from depth. So many times it appeared an AB player got the ball with little chance to run onto it at pace and make a directional change at the same time. In the first Boks v Wallabies, Kellaways' try came because FdK rushed a deeply-set Kerevi and he shifted subtly to avoid it - suddenly there is space, and that was the 5th phase after the lineout.

So you could say the Boks have the right game plan for the ABs.
The Wallabies have the right game plan for the Boks.
The ABs have the right game plan for the Wallabies.

I'd also add that Neinaber's move to replace his front row just before halftime was good coaching. Firstly, none of those starting guys are fit enough to play Test Rugby, and weren't contributing except at set piece.

Secondly, when you look at the way the ABs have lost their cohesion late in the game when subs come on, it meant his fitter front rowers could have more impact on the game at set piece and around the park.

@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@bovidae said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@chris said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@tim said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Shit tactics. Didn't adjust to their ruck tactics.

Very poor captain selection.

No real game plan worse than last week,we learnt nothing.

I blame TJP and Mo'unga at the end. Pick and goes are always 50/50.

Mo'unga really struggles against teams like the Boks and England who are super physical on defense. He got smashed when he came on and hardly featured after that.

I thought Beauden (cross kick in the 2nd half aside) showed why he is our best 10 tonight. Mounga always struggles when his pack is getting beaten. Beauden did good stuff in-spite of a struggling pack.

From the scrum in the 78th, the ABs had no excuse not to win that game. A couple of pretty sloppy mistakes let the Boks have it.

That said, I cant remember the last time I saw a team successfully play out the last 90 seconds of a game with one-out forward hit ups. The refs are so thirsty for a penalty in those moments, and they find one 90% of the time.

I wonder if it might be better to grubber the ball into touch 30m out. Yes you give it back to them but it's much harder for them to score from there than 20m out.

@bobily2 said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

We need a specialist lineout coach, no matter what it costs. Frustrating to see the same weakness 5 games in a row.

no, just need Sam W. back. He has shown he is our first choice lock for the big games. Any other combo can play that lesser lights. But Sam is a must against SA, Eng.

Looking more closely at the ABs:

Was Christie available? Because TJP isn't improving and it might be time to move on. Mean haka tho.

B Barrett looked hesitant, and not just because of the rush defence. He looks to me like he's carrying a niggle.

Patty Tuipulotu - for such a big lump, AB scrum seems to go backwards a bit when he's on.

J Barrett by far your most valuable player. Wish the Wallabies had a fullback with that combination of size, pace and calm right now.

S Barrett not far behind in the value stakes.

I'm not sure Moody and Laulala were the right guys to start. Both look a bit underdone and Laulala has no excuse in that department.

My lasting impression is that the AB pack got bossed and that contributed to the stagnant performance.

I thought the decision to try and wind down the clock was not the best, given the ruck work of the Boks and the risk of English interpretation for the defending side. Might have been better off kicking to corner or putting up a high ball and letting the Boks trip over themselves, tho Steyn was in good touch.

@nta said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

DISCLAIMER: have only watched the game once I thought i was a cracker, particuarly the first half.

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

How is it the Wallabies can put the Boks to
ABs haven't changed in several years - the aim of the game is being fitter than everyone, and racking up turnover runaway tries. "You miss I hit" being the basic premise.

And because Foster is just an extension of the Hansen era things may not change. We were all clamoring for a change but the NZRFU does what is has done for years. Unfortunately you have the better coach so the rivalry might just intensify which would be good for both countries but more so for Oz.

@broughie said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@nta said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

DISCLAIMER: have only watched the game once I thought i was a cracker, particuarly the first half.

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

How is it the Wallabies can put the Boks to
ABs haven't changed in several years - the aim of the game is being fitter than everyone, and racking up turnover runaway tries. "You miss I hit" being the basic premise.

And because Foster is just an extension of the Hansen era things may not change. We were all clamoring for a change but the NZRFU does what is has done for years. Unfortunately you have the better coach so the rivalry might just intensify which would be good for both countries but more so for Oz.

And, in that, occasional losses are good.

But the nature of this one - 1 point, mighty struggle etc might mask all this.

Bring back A Smith and Whitelock and suddenly things improve, which is a sign that it is more about the people than the plan.

@tordah said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Can't win all the games, ABs 2010-2015 vintage was something special. It's still a very good team, but losing so many of the World XV was sure to have an impact. Still very likely the best team in the world, Boks lost three on the trot and ABs just the one. But Boks played better on the night.

2016 & 2017 were pretty sharp too. Then Hansen started getting cute with selections and suffered amnesia around how to win World Cups with experience and settled combos. All about the same time we dropped that game to Ireland in the US. Call it the Chicago Curse.

I think missing Aaron Smith is a bigger loss than some realize. We need his crisp accurate pass and decisiveness.

@bones said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@stodders said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@bones he certainly seemed to get swept up in the drama. Refs are only human, and I think this was his first Bok/AB game, no? Makes you appreciate how good Nigel Owens was to maintain his poise in the heat of these types of games.

Nah, these refs work their way up - but did anyone else see how nervous he looked before kickoff? He got so tired after the 30th minute that he stopped being able to see the most basic infringements. That suited the bokke way more than us - but to be fair the AR's were just as bad... what the fuck was the thinking on Mapimpi and the penalties before and after halftime? They are worse than shockers.

The ref lost his composure for a period after the water carrier berated the AR. He made a number of bizarre calls in the 10 minutes after that. Never really got it back.

@damo it is his decision making that was missed most IMO.

Thought the AB forwards didn't pose enough of a threat around the edge of the breakdown. The Boks were just fanning out knowing the ball was going wide rather than using the inside ball that the Wallabies used to good effect. Of course, it would have helped massively if the ball wasn't dropped as much over last 2 tests that relieved the pressure on Boks in telling moments.

@damo said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

I think missing Aaron Smith is a bigger loss than some realize. We need his crisp accurate pass and decisiveness.

Weber played well. I'd have him over TJP anyday now.

@westcoastie said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@damo said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

I think missing Aaron Smith is a bigger loss than some realize. We need his crisp accurate pass and decisiveness.

Weber played well. I'd have him over TJP anyday now.

I can't think of many other teams that TJP would get into. I do think the time has come to move on from him. Decent reserve if required, but others should be given the opportunity to stake their claim. Real shame Fakatava got his long term injury.

@nta I agree but our tight 5 were not that good.

Our tighties used to be the point of difference with opposition sides with how they carried and passed the ball. I'm not seeing it any more - plenty of handling mistakes (Moody - where the hell is the 2015 ball playing prop who arrived?)

Maybe because it is now 6 years later and he is not the same player.

@chris said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@chris said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Our tight 5 is not as good as the Boks 5. Work to do

Our tight five was 100 times worse when our subs came on.

Yup. Our forwards just aren't there right now. Lots of young guys, a few past their best. And they put it all together tonight

We need Whitelock and cane back and hope next Super Rugby season some young tight fives with mongrel turn up.

Definitely missed Whitelock, and I think we'd like to have Dalton Papalii there. He seems built for games like this one.
I'm a bit half/half on Sam Cane. We miss his tackling, but not his overall work as a 7. Play him at 6.

@bones said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

My kingdom for a halfback. The difference between winning and losing today.

Don't get me wrong, Weber was adequate...but that's in comparison to the shit show that is TJ.

Nock needs to be involved in the ABs. He's got all the materials.

is it Fakatava? spelling? the other Highlanders 9...

@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@tim said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Havili/ALB midfield lacks a ball carrier. We really could do with a physical 12.

Havili is simply not a top class 12. He's done ok but he's not a long-term solution.

Give him some time. I thought ALB should've come off the bench rather than start straight into that level of intensity. Our midfield tactics were shite.

ALB also spent a lot of time out on the wing I thought. Seemed to be there plenty.

@berniescorner Foster.

@broughie said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Our tighties used to be the point of difference with opposition sides with how they carried and passed the ball. I'm not seeing it any more - plenty of handling mistakes (Moody - where the hell is the 2015 ball playing prop who arrived?)

Maybe because it is now 6 years later and he is not the same player.

He's got so much slower, and the handling hsa gone to shit. I know it's 6 years, but damn that's some regression.

@westcoastie said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

ALB also spent a lot of time out on the wing I thought. Seemed to be there plenty.

He reminded me of Bridge when he was out on the wing with ball in hand.

@kev said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Who was calling the lineouts? Whomever had a shit game.

Looked like Boks almost knew our calls

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@westcoastie said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

ALB also spent a lot of time out on the wing I thought. Seemed to be there plenty.

He reminded me of Bridge when he was out on the wing with ball in hand.

if he was slightly faster, we get two more tries. Tough, as coming back from injury and not match conditioned

@nzzp Well maybe we just have to be more realistic of shelflife of these guys with as much rugby as they play.. I think that’s why they are so much into managing workloads.

@westcoastie said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@chris said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@chris said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Our tight 5 is not as good as the Boks 5. Work to do

Our tight five was 100 times worse when our subs came on.

Yup. Our forwards just aren't there right now. Lots of young guys, a few past their best. And they put it all together tonight

We need Whitelock and cane back and hope next Super Rugby season some young tight fives with mongrel turn up.

Definitely missed Whitelock, and I think we'd like to have Dalton Papalii there. He seems built for games like this one.
I'm a bit half/half on Sam Cane. We miss his tackling, but not his overall work as a 7. Play him at 6.

I think we have to get used to missing the likes of Whitelock and Cane. Those guys are approaching the end of their careers and we need to hurry up and find some depth in these areas. Even with Nugget, hopefully we will get another 30-40 tests out of him but def need more depth at halfback

@akan004 said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@crazy-horse True, and it's because we are sticking to the conventional method of having the 10 kick it out. BB doesn't have the biggest punt and neither does Richie. Why not utilise Havili's boot or Jordie's?

Even Reece kicked it further.

I recall reading during the week about how Beaudy was third on the points list behind Dan and Merhts , likely to stay that way because he seems to have lost the goal kicking duties anyway

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Another thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet is how easy it is for teams to pin us in our own half following kick off. This has been a problem for a few years now. Last night the Boks were superb at it. Kick long and high to give the chasers time to get in a defensive position. Then stop the ensuing maul, smash our one off hit up and pressure the subsequent kick. We end up defending a lineout between our 22 and 10 metre line if we are lucky.

We miss a long punting game, especially at 10.

Carter was a great runner and passer, exceptional goal kick, and his defence was very good, but that sweeping left boot got the ABs out of difficult spots so many times.

Helped he could kick 40 on the fly with his right too.

@damo said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

I think missing Aaron Smith is a bigger loss than some realize. We need his crisp accurate pass and decisiveness.

I'm not sure. I thought Weber played well. Problem was he wasn't getting much protection from his forwards.

Far too long now until the next game, even longer until first decent ones!

@nevorian said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@kev said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Who was calling the lineouts? Whomever had a shit game.

Looked like Boks almost knew our calls

Nope. They just mark up on your second rowers at 4-6+ and let you have front ball to let the pod at the front stop your maul. They did it against us as well. Later in the game they'd swap Etzebeth to the front to disrupt your 2 ball when it was obviously the go-to.

What the fucking hell was happening with Kitshoff won the ball at the front, i don't know. Terrible execution.

@westcoastie said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@bovidae said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@chris said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@tim said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Shit tactics. Didn't adjust to their ruck tactics.

Very poor captain selection.

No real game plan worse than last week,we learnt nothing.

I blame TJP and Mo'unga at the end. Pick and goes are always 50/50.

Mo'unga really struggles against teams like the Boks and England who are super physical on defense. He got smashed when he came on and hardly featured after that.

I thought Beauden (cross kick in the 2nd half aside) showed why he is our best 10 tonight. Mounga always struggles when his pack is getting beaten. Beauden did good stuff in-spite of a struggling pack.

BB looks so good when he is running at gaps. RM challenges the line more. But both need their forwards to give them time with quick go forward ball. I think RM is much better kicker. Really clear that we lost that match in the 1st 25 mins of second half.

NB: that cross kick 2nd half was so wrong - wrong decision, bad execution ( luckily or we risked giving away 7 )

@nta the Springbokke missed two key players in Kolbey and PSdT.

@nta Kitsie read that one well.

@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@nevorian said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

We lost the game as soon as we started talking about Grand Slams

Any links? First I’ve heard that.

The loss we had to have ?

No just a gut feel, gave the boks the added incentive to kick our butts because it smacked a bit of arrogance

... and the Boks are back to No 1.

Wish we played them last year

@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Another thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet is how easy it is for teams to pin us in our own half following kick off. This has been a problem for a few years now. Last night the Boks were superb at it. Kick long and high to give the chasers time to get in a defensive position. Then stop the ensuing maul, smash our one off hit up and pressure the subsequent kick. We end up defending a lineout between our 22 and 10 metre line if we are lucky.

We miss a long punting game, especially at 10.

Carter was a great runner and passer, exceptional goal kick, and his defence was very good, but that sweeping left boot got the ABs out of difficult spots so many times.

Helped he could kick 40 on the fly with his right too.

Watched an old game a while back and the ABs had Dagg kicking long, as well as Carter. Hit home how poor we are in that department now.

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

Another thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet is how easy it is for teams to pin us in our own half following kick off. This has been a problem for a few years now. Last night the Boks were superb at it. Kick long and high to give the chasers time to get in a defensive position. Then stop the ensuing maul, smash our one off hit up and pressure the subsequent kick. We end up defending a lineout between our 22 and 10 metre line if we are lucky.

We miss a long punting game, especially at 10.

Carter was a great runner and passer, exceptional goal kick, and his defence was very good, but that sweeping left boot got the ABs out of difficult spots so many times.

Helped he could kick 40 on the fly with his right too.

Watched an old game a while back and the ABs had Dagg kicking long, as well as Carter. Hit home how poor we are in that department now.

Dagg's boot was exceptional. Just booming punts from teh back

@oompb said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:

@nta the Springbokke missed two key players in Kolbey and PSdT.

Also a factor BUT I think Smith is far more important to the ABs than either of those players to the Boks.

If you pick PSdT you might be tempted to leave out Kwagga, and I think he was just too important in the balance of that particular back row.

I don't think the attacking opportunities were there against the ABs for Kolbe any more than Mapimpi or Nkosi. Personally think Cheslin would have been more dangerous against the Wallabies - his defense would surely be better than Mapimpi who completely failed to cover Andrew Kellaway in Wallabies v Boks Test 1, and had a number of poor reads when the ball got a bit of work on it. Against the ABs' lack of creativity tho Mapimpi was fine.