We left some tries out there
I thought Laulala was close to a card - lucky and was ok in ball security but was that 3 penalties? Can't do that, those numbers makes Ofa look good. I'm not sure if I was more amazed by our hookers acceleration (and Aumua had a silky pass or two) or how hard it is to teach hookers to throw but boy they are brick walls when they need to be, good to see. I still rate Coles as #1, he just knows what to do and improves his x-factor play the more it is required. Moody was quietly effective in the tackle.
BBR was everywhere, making metres, great tackling, but, and I risk the ire of Ferners, I thought Scott Barrett missed an important tackle in the first 5 minutes, had a big motor, didn't lose the ball or his rag, was great in the lineouts, but wasn't BBBR or Sam W. (Not sure how they are instructing the bench-Va'a didn't seem to know what he was doing out there, Tupaea sometimes also looked lost).
The loosies-again it was hard to see Dalton at times because he was always on the ground but in a good way, major turnovers (one in the face of two or three shocked Argies), a good turn of pace, linked well and tackled like a Swiss clock. Jacobson, sometimes, I notice, he hasn't planned ahead for the tackle and drops surprise/weak passes, but overall and especially defensively, and for those tries, well played. Yes Akira was targeted (as was Havili and DMac-well, attempted) but he still played very very well and it is hard to imagine Frizzell displacing him.
TJP directed really well, always running with the pass rather than hesitating, doesn't seem to have the footspeed he had in the pass, but had a great game. Apart from a scamper or two and some quick passes I thought Weber still had some low, dodgy passes, and I noticed DMac did as well at 10. Luckily it wasn't too obvious as the catcher usually managed to adjust. DMac did not have a great game at 10 but considering he has a calf injury (and why then was he kicking), some of BB's passing was sublime and his running more direct than I can recall for a year or two.
I'm not sure how many tries we left out there because Reece's arm was too short or JB's feet/legs were too big but boy there might have been 20 points for a couple of mm or bodies hiding the ball. Gotta say the Argies' defence was impressive, on the line, in the tackle, ruck..they tried to lift some players less successfully but to keep that defensive wall up for nearly 200 tackles..just wish they tried to score at the other side occasionally. I don't think they ever really played to win.
And that especially goes for Kremer and Matera who were lucky not to be found out more often than they did. I like their coach though, no claptrap. And with Chieka and a couple of masks and a ring in, Ledesma could do a good Walt Disney Beagles Boys impression.
Havili looked frustrated out there and was often picked on by the Argies but I thought he played nearly as well as Rieko Ioane, if we could just leverage his breaks a little more....
I thought Bridge looked faster, more decisive, a little unlucky. I rate Jordan and Reece higher as wingers, but apart from one stuffed up move I thought he did ok.
But no way should they let older bro B. Barrett take the conversions and penalties.
@bones said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@bones said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
Bridge has got to be under clear instruction - apart from the grubber ahead, was there a carry where he didn't just tuck and go for the nearest tackler?
He obviously offers something that Foster & co see and we don't, but I'm buggered if I can spot it
Like kev said, I guess the team at least know what's going to happen when he gets the ball and can set accordingly? He typically doesn't turn it over either.
I dunno. I sense he's a better player than what we have seen from him in Black so far. It's almost as though he's been told to do as little as possible once he's got the ball.
It gets fucking frustrating to see so many opportunities scorned though.
He's probably frustrated as well.
@victor-meldrew yeah, thought that was kinda the point I was making. Maybe similar to what I thought of Jordan until last week - the frustrating moments just seem so derived that it can't be the player's "instincts".
@bones said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@victor-meldrew yeah, thought that was kinda the point I was making. Maybe similar to what I thought of Jordan until last week - the frustrating moments just seem so derived that it can't be the player's "instincts".
Never thought I'd say this, but perhaps Foster is a bit cuter than we think and has confidence Bridge will grow into the role Foster obviously sees for him.
@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@machpants I think Havili is def struggling with rhier defence running around like Dmac and limiting options
Yeah, just needs to run straight. Doesn’t help anyone running backwards behind his own players
He did this a lot for the Crusaders too a while back. I remember saying on here I was not convinced about him as a 12 because of his sideways running. Didn't do it as much this year when he played at 12 regularly, so hopefully it's a temporary thing while he gets used to the next step up. .
@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@african-monkey said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@chimoaus Ennor but he's always injured anyway.
Just play him at wing so we can fuck off bridge.
He will bring his own set of frustrations, especially given he has not played much lately.
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
Got away with it, but that hit was inches away from a card.
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
Got away with it, but that hit was inches away from a card.
Jeez dude, best hit of the weekend, perfectly executed, and ‘got away with it’? Glass half empty much?
The other 4 penailties he gave away he didn’t get away with, mind you
None of the starting 15 really had a howler. All the forwards were good. Even Bridge was OK without being eye-catching.
I prefer Reiko on the wing purely because he gets more opportunities out there and Havilli and ALB are a great combo.
Jordie has proven that he needs to be there over Dmac. Even against tired legs, Dmac didn't offer much
So swing in Aaron Smith, Mounga and ALB and the team looks after itself.
@hooroo Whitelock too, Moody, Taylor to the starting line up, then you add Coles, Clarke and Goodhue into the mix and things start to look even better.
@machpants said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
Got away with it, but that hit was inches away from a card.
Jeez dude, best hit of the weekend, perfectly executed, and ‘got away with it’? Glass half empty much?
The other 4 penailties he gave away he didn’t get away with, mind you
Not being glass half empty at all. Agreed, it was a good hit,but it was inches away from being a card.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@hooroo Whitelock too, Moody, Taylor to the starting line up, then you add Coles, Clarke and Goodhue into the mix and things start to look even better.
You can make a decent case that this would be first choice starting XV if everyone was fit:
Moody, Taylor, Tuúngafasi, Whitelock, Retallick, Ioane, Cane, Savea, Smith, Mo'unga, Ioane, Lienert-Brown, Goodhue, Jordan, McKenzie.
Not quite what I would pick and probably not quite what Fozzie would pick - tighthead, midfield mix and fullback are question marks. But, only three of last nights starters and Rieko out of position.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@hooroo Whitelock too, Moody, Taylor to the starting line up, then you add Coles, Clarke and Goodhue into the mix and things start to look even better.
True. Clarke I can take or leave as not that bothered about him now. I think S Barrett covered what Whitelock does so I can't see a change in performance once Whitelock comes back.
I'd have Coles over Taylor too.
@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@hooroo Whitelock too, Moody, Taylor to the starting line up, then you add Coles, Clarke and Goodhue into the mix and things start to look even better.
You can make a decent case that this would be first choice starting XV if everyone was fit:
Moody, Taylor, Tuúngafasi, Whitelock, Retallick, Ioane, Cane, Savea, Smith, Mo'unga, Ioane, Lienert-Brown, Goodhue, Jordan, McKenzie.
Not quite what I would pick and probably not quite what Fozzie would pick - tighthead, midfield mix and fullback are question marks. But, only three of last nights starters and Rieko out of position.
I know Cane is captain but I'd go Papalii over him based on Dalton's performances. With Barrett/Whitelock and Retallick, the Cane presence is as needed IMO
You don't think J Barrett has done enough to keep Dmac out?
@hooroo just more that having players of that calibre available is a good thing.
So looking forward to the Bok tests!
edit: Damn, forgot about Cane too.
@hooroo I've been in favour of Jordie all season - I don't like too many little men. But, I think it's a question mark. Fozzie seemed to prefer DMac at the start of the season and now the water is muddy because Dmac is the back-up first five.
Wasn't Cane was player of the season last year? I think he walks in if available and both Fozzie and I are picking him. 
@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@hooroo I've been in favour of Jordie all season - I don't like too many little men. But, I think it's a question mark. Fozzie seemed to prefer DMac at the start of the season and now the water is muddy because Dmac is the back-up first five.
Wasn't Cane was player of the season last year? I think he walks in if available and both Fozzie and I are picking him.
Good point about Cane last year (I have a shocking memory). It seems he's been injured forever. I happily take back Dalton over Sam, I would take Cane on last years performance.
@hooroo I'm happy with any of Cane, Savea or Papali'i in the 7 jersey. To be honest, probably in that order - but, it's not a problem position.
that was pretty good really wasn't it? We dominated them for basically the whole game, they never looked like breaking us open, and we scored a few points. Yes the 2nd half was shit, but the game was done and literally everyone knew it. We kept the defensive intensity up
Not too much can be read in to it because the Argies are really very ordinary at everything except tackling, they did a lot of that and did it well. But we've got some bloody good players running around.
More than happy to keep Jordie at the back based on his work. He's big, fearless, and gaining confidence all the time. Liking lots of what Havili brings, but he does have a few work-ons. Game suited BBarrett down to the ground, and he played nicely with ball in hand. Kicking not so much. Pack was good, lineouts aside. Still think we are a little static at times when we go through the phases, but there was some terrific tackling by Blue.
DMac is done for me. There are better players everywhere, and i blame the mindless last half an hour almost entirely on him overplaying his hand all the fucking time. Not a 10. Not a good enough 15. Squadie at best. George Bridge is just meh. Has to be 4th on the winger list now, and should find himself out of the squad if they can find a guy who is able to beat a man. Wasn't a bad game, but it wasn't good either.
We're building nicely i think. This isn't a dominant squad that will run rough-shod over the rugby world for 4 years, but our top 23 is going to be very hard to beat.
@victor-meldrew and what role is that? Not a block busting winger. Not a try scorer when not in space. I think he is safe but won’t wins game and do the remarkable when it is needed.
@frank said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
The Akira, Papalii, Jacobson loose forward combination is savage as fuck.
and, if everyone was available, two of them would not start, 1 wouldn't make the bench.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
Yes the 2nd half was shit,
Introducing the bench has disrupted the ABs significantly in recent games, particularly on defence. Some of this was due to forced changes with injury/HIA and such, but even planned changes aren't gelling perfectly.
@nta said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
Yes the 2nd half was shit,
Introducing the bench has disrupted the ABs significantly in recent games, particularly on defence. Some of this was due to forced changes with injury/HIA and such, but even planned changes aren't gelling perfectly.
is it me or do we also seem to be make the changes earlier, even before the 50th minute
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
DMac is done for me. There are better players everywhere, and i blame the mindless last half an hour almost entirely on him overplaying his hand all the fucking time. Not a 10. Not a good enough 15. Squadie at best.
Good to see people slowly coming around.
Has DMac lost some of his pace? The main reason he was so dangerous was that he could take a gap and be gone but now he just looks small and nippy but not fast.
The Argentina defence really was excellent. Given how easily the Aussies gave up tries after just one missed tackle, the ABs really had to work hard to get over the line and the Argies really never seemed to be outnumbered even after multiple phases.
@kiwipie I don’t think he has lost pace it’s is just the defenses are better and they know his stick. He needs space to operate that is why JB is a better selection as he can handle the contact in a tight game plus he isn’t that bad. I like his size over Dmac.
@kiwipie either lost some pace or lost his confidence in his pace, just seemed really cautious about actually taking the ball to the line
@frank said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
The Akira, Papalii, Jacobson loose forward combination is savage as fuck.
If you were simply judging the loose forwards as a unit this one must tick just about all the boxes. And remember they are very inexperienced at the top level and can only get better. I agree that Cane and Ardie are better players but I wonder if the mix isn't as good when we add them. A good problem to have.
Was awesome to see Beauden have such a good game to give Mo'unga some competition and keep him honest. But please, one starts and one on the bench. Because 1) they both want to control the game so conflict with each other in a "duel playmaker" role, and 2) either one of them will be fucking lethal off the bench against tiring defenses.
@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
@hooroo Whitelock too, Moody, Taylor to the starting line up, then you add Coles, Clarke and Goodhue into the mix and things start to look even better.
You can make a decent case that this would be first choice starting XV if everyone was fit:
Moody, Taylor, Tuúngafasi, Whitelock, Retallick, Ioane, Cane, Savea, Smith, Mo'unga, Ioane, Lienert-Brown, Goodhue, Jordan, McKenzie.
Not quite what I would pick and probably not quite what Fozzie would pick - tighthead, midfield mix and fullback are question marks. But, only three of last nights starters and Rieko out of position.
I think ALB’s 2nd 5 starting days in black are over, other than in an emergency.
I think if all are fit I’d have
Moody, Taylor, Tuúngafasi, Whitelock, Retallick, Ioane, Cane, Savea, Smith, Mo'unga, Ioane, Havili, Lienert-Brown, Reece, J. Barrett
Coles
Tu'inukuafe
Laulala
S. Barrett
Papali’i / Jacobsen - either or really as both would equally serve what we need in terms of options
Perenara
B. Barrett
Jordan
@kiwipie said in All Blacks vs Pumas I (yay we’re not playing the Aussies again):
The Argentina defence really was excellent. Given how easily the Aussies gave up tries after just one missed tackle, the ABs really had to work hard to get over the line and the Argies really never seemed to be outnumbered even after multiple phases.
It was telling when some of our players went searching for a gap - Havili running across players or Ioane running a drift line - instead of being more direct. More often than not the Argies were right there ready.
Was a good contrast to how the Aussies defended. On the other hand Argies attack didn’t offer our defence anything like what that the Aussies did.
@act-crusader Be interesting to see what they do when Goodhue becomes available again, because we'll have three centres and one second-five. IMO ALB is a much better option at 2nd five than Goodhue - I've got no idea what Foster was thinking when he switched them in 2020 (from his 2019 pairing).
Reece starting? He's not even the best right wing for his NPC team!
(That's a Waugh brothers joke).
Jordan starting at 14 for me. Probably Sevu on the bench.