All Blacks v Argentina I
Well, before the match I said Argentine were a good side playing well and I'd be happy with a good, solid win. One out of three would have been good...
The whole team started well and there were some good touches and progress (I liked the way we kept it simple to try and regain momentum) but as the game went on, the same old problems we've seen for the last 5-6 years came into the foreground - stupid mistakes by senior players, lack of patience and a creeping collective terror of minimal time left to win the game.
Without re-watching the game, it seemed to me that apart from the scrums and a maul or two, the forwards went backwards from last week. The breakdown work was ineffective and the discipline was poor. Taylor was truly awful though the lineout jumpers and captain deserve some of the blame as well, as the co-ordination was poor - particularly on the last AB lineout throw. The swapping of the front row was dumb or mis-timed, but the elephant in the room was how poor the replacements actually were at the breakdown. They are all Crusaders so used to working together so you have to question their preparation for the game.
Jordie made metres on attack but that was about it, Clarke and Jordan never really hit their straps and Reiko was a shadow of his Ellis Park self. Mo'unga was pretty awful at times and looked to have the yips with the boot. Havili was solid without being spectacular. The whole attack looked slow, one-dimensional and lacking in penetration. Yet no-one played badly - it was either a poor attack plan and/or poor analysis of Argentinian defence.
Buggered if I know what the problems are, but it's pretty dumb to blame it all on Foster. Last week it was all about Jason Ryan getting credit for the forwards improvement and this week they seem to have regressed. Ditto Joe Schmidt on attack and analysis. I do, however, question the effectiveness of the AB leadership group. Are they too powerful? Are they seeing the on-field issues as they occur and addressing them or do they get the collective yips?
My preferred solution after the Ireland fiasco was to sack Foster and replace him (either Schmidt or Robertson or ANO) and give the new bloke 8-9 games to demonstrate improvement and, if not, then a full scale review after the EOYT to see what the issues really are to fix what can be fixed before RWC2023. It seemed to me the best mix of possible progress and risk management. Sadly, the first part of that ship has sailed, but there's still the option for the second bit.
The clusterfuck of omnishambles
@stodders said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Pepe said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Well done Argies.
ABs very poor.
Most random reffing performance I have seen for some time, well since that Wales v Boks test.
He's simply not up to standard but he wasn't the reason you lost.
Was a factor.
Take him out and we win.
Not convinced
Ref wasn't committing the penalties and throwing the ball in shit
Ref invented penalties, for one side and ignored the other side.
It created the scoreboard pressure. And subsequent panic.
Sure we did stupid shit too.
But change that factor and put a proper ref in charge and that result changes.
That's down to the captain, players and coaches not adapting to the ref
Everyone knew he's useless before kick off
NZ did not play the ref, Argentina did
End of
So you're saying the referee's inadequacies affected the result?
I agree entirely
The team's inadequacies affected the result much more
Take one factor out and the result changes
Not giving away so many penalties to allow the Pumas to stay in touch?
Yes.
That is another different factor.
But then ask yourself were all those penalties legit, or were they the result of an incompetent referee?
Again... change that factor ...
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Pepe said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Well done Argies.
ABs very poor.
Most random reffing performance I have seen for some time, well since that Wales v Boks test.
He's simply not up to standard but he wasn't the reason you lost.
Was a factor.
Take him out and we win.
Not convinced
Ref wasn't committing the penalties and throwing the ball in shit
Ref invented penalties, for one side and ignored the other side.
It created the scoreboard pressure. And subsequent panic.
Sure we did stupid shit too.
But change that factor and put a proper ref in charge and that result changes.
That's down to the captain, players and coaches not adapting to the ref
Everyone knew he's useless before kick off
NZ did not play the ref, Argentina did
End of
So you're saying the referee's inadequacies affected the result?
I agree entirely
The team's inadequacies affected the result much more
Take one factor out and the result changes
Not giving away so many penalties to allow the Pumas to stay in touch?
Yes.
That is another different factor.
But then ask yourself were all those penalties legit, or were they the result of an incompetent referee?
Again... change that factor ...
Bollox, Arg got stung with some howlers as well. It went both ways. Arg dealt with it, our lot couldn't
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Steve said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Gregor Paul was on Irish podcast after the South Africa game to talk about Fosters backing from NZRU.
He opined that maybe a lot of the players backed Foster because if Razor was appointed they would be dropped....
Maybe, there really isn't a huge amount of depth though?
I still don't understand the early continual benching of Saminsoni given Taylor is still having an abysmal run? Fitness issues? He looked fine to me.The worst thing is the same errors keep repeating, not being able to play to the ref being one of them.
I think whatever about the depth, we have had 4 or 5 years now of picking what we HAVE got out of position/poorly selected.
Rieko is the 11.
Jordan is the FB
Give me an 8 at 8 and a 7 at 7.
We have been fucking around with Barrett brothers at 10,15,14, wingers at centre, 7's at 8. Locks at 6. Dual playmakers.
Hooking the captain at 60 minutes on more than one occasion.
Its a tacit admission he isn't the right captain then.
Its a dogs breakfast of running a team.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
A nice side step run beating numerous players from the sideline bench to the middle of the park where the ball didn’t come near him.
Difficult when the ball can't even leave the lineout.
I think @antipodean commented above about Jordan not beating a single defender - TBH it would help if the inside ball did enough work to create space. Tonight the Argies were reading the attack well because it is basic as shit, 2nd-man dropoff pass stuff.
Test rugby has lately a dearth of creative set piece play due in part to improved defences. I think it is time some smart rugby people figured out how to bring it back.
@booboo ref was so so, but poor discipline. Mentioned at halftime by one of the muppets, but not fixed in second half
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Pepe said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Well done Argies.
ABs very poor.
Most random reffing performance I have seen for some time, well since that Wales v Boks test.
He's simply not up to standard but he wasn't the reason you lost.
Was a factor.
Take him out and we win.
Not convinced
Ref wasn't committing the penalties and throwing the ball in shit
Ref invented penalties, for one side and ignored the other side.
It created the scoreboard pressure. And subsequent panic.
Sure we did stupid shit too.
But change that factor and put a proper ref in charge and that result changes.
That's down to the captain, players and coaches not adapting to the ref
Everyone knew he's useless before kick off
NZ did not play the ref, Argentina did
End of
So you're saying the referee's inadequacies affected the result?
I agree entirely
The team's inadequacies affected the result much more
Take one factor out and the result changes
Not giving away so many penalties to allow the Pumas to stay in touch?
Yes.
That is another different factor.
But then ask yourself were all those penalties legit, or were they the result of an incompetent referee?
I thought a couple were a bit rough on the ABs. But then, your hooker detatched from the maul for his try, so....
I like that the ref was pretty strict on latching player going to deck - and fairly consistent.
Again... change that factor ...
Or be good enough that a couple of decisions aren't in frame.
@The-Docter said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Other countries commentators used to quip that anyone could coach the All Blacks and win.
then maybe we just needed one good coach.
Frankly, I think this is a solid Argie side and we simply, consistently, are not.
I do worry about the depth and quality of our 10s as well.
But bench timings, wow, such a key factor.
@The-Docter said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Other countries commentators used to quip that anyone could coach the All Blacks and win.
Yeah but a Nobody can't.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Well, before the match I said Argentine were a good side playing well and I'd be happy with a good, solid win. One out of three would have been good...
The whole team started well and there were some good touches and progress (I liked the way we kept it simple to try and regain momentum) but as the game went on, the same old problems we've seen for the last 5-6 years came into the foreground - stupid mistakes by senior players, lack of patience and a creeping collective terror of minimal time left to win the game.
Without re-watching the game, it seemed to me that apart from the scrums and a maul or two, the forwards went backwards from last week. The breakdown work was ineffective and the discipline was poor. Taylor was truly awful though the lineout jumpers and captain deserve some of the blame as well, as the co-ordination was poor - particularly on the last AB lineout throw. The swapping of the front row was dumb or mis-timed, but the elephant in the room was how poor the replacements actually were at the breakdown. They are all Crusaders so used to working together so you have to question their preparation for the game.
Jordie made metres on attack but that was about it, Clarke and Jordan never really hit their straps and Reiko was a shadow of his Ellis Park self. Mo'unga was pretty awful at times and looked to have the yips with the boot. Havili was solid without being spectacular. The whole attack looked slow, one-dimensional and lacking in penetration. Yet no-one played badly - it was either a poor attack plan and/or poor analysis of Argentinian defence.
Buggered if I know what the problems are, but it's pretty dumb to blame it all on Foster. Last week it was all about Jason Ryan getting credit for the forwards improvement and this week they seem to have regressed. Ditto Joe Schmidt on attack and analysis. I do, however, question the effectiveness of the AB leadership group. Are they too powerful? Are they seeing the on-field issues as they occur and addressing them or do they get the collective yips?
My preferred solution after the Ireland fiasco was to sack Foster and replace him (either Schmidt or Robertson or ANO) and give the new bloke 8-9 games to demonstrate improvement and, if not, then a full scale review after the EOYT to see what the issues really are to fix what can be fixed before RWC2023. It seemed to me the best mix of possible progress and risk management. Sadly, the first part of that ship has sailed, but there's still the option for the second bit.
The clusterfuck of omnishambles
I had a two and fro with Bones in the Ellis park thread regarding RIeko. For all his good scramble last week it was arguable he was out of position for most of his tackles. HIs wheels got him out of trouble. He is not a centre. It's plain to see from my barstool. Clarke and Jordan are getting served up a load of slop.
Put Rieko on the left wing and leave him there to break Howletts record.
Look at these highlights and look at the Ioane we are utilising now.
Caleb doesn't have the toe to go 60 meters.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
I do, however, question the effectiveness of the AB leadership group. Are they too powerful?
Very good point.
They backed Foster and probably swung the balance in his favor and then, in this age of feelings over results and the fear of angering the players, the NZR lacked the balls to sack him.
I wonder if a few in that group were worried about being replaced by Razor.
Will Jordan switching to 15 could revolutionise the team. Catching kicks , eyeing up the gaps and running at fatties with time and space.
His highlight reel is indicative of a player who is a scalpel coming from depth.
Once the first line is broken and we have go forward ball, you tend to win your offside penalties and score against scattered defences.
We don't break the line enough any more.
@Frank said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
I do, however, question the effectiveness of the AB leadership group. Are they too powerful?
Very good point.
They backed Foster and probably swung the balance in his favor and then, in this age of feelings over results and the fear of angering the players, the NZR lacked the balls to sack him.I wonder if a few in that group were worried about being replaced by Razor.
Maybe but Smith? Doubtful. Ardie? No fucking way. Mo'unga, unlikely
Cane, sure
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Pepe said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Well done Argies.
ABs very poor.
Most random reffing performance I have seen for some time, well since that Wales v Boks test.
He's simply not up to standard but he wasn't the reason you lost.
Was a factor.
Take him out and we win.
Not convinced
Ref wasn't committing the penalties and throwing the ball in shit
Ref invented penalties, for one side and ignored the other side.
It created the scoreboard pressure. And subsequent panic.
Sure we did stupid shit too.
But change that factor and put a proper ref in charge and that result changes.
That's down to the captain, players and coaches not adapting to the ref
Everyone knew he's useless before kick off
NZ did not play the ref, Argentina did
End of
So you're saying the referee's inadequacies affected the result?
I agree entirely
The team's inadequacies affected the result much more
Take one factor out and the result changes
Not giving away so many penalties to allow the Pumas to stay in touch?
Yes.
That is another different factor.
But then ask yourself were all those penalties legit, or were they the result of an incompetent referee?
Again... change that factor ...
From the highlight package that was just posted, all the penalties awarded to Argentina which resulted in points were legit
when was the last time you seen an Allblack dotting down under the sticks with a few support runners close by.
Look at the Ellis park tries. Scooter, Havili, Samisoni....barely crossing the whitewash. Ditto Frizell in the first test he barely touched the chalk with his consolation try.
They are fighting for every inch at the moment. They havnt scored an easy try all season.
Where is the scalpel? The Line breaks? Quick outside backs cutting teams to pieces.
Looking at highlights from 2018 and I see Dmac, Laumape ,Ben Smith, Beauden queuing up on outside shoulders for easy run ins.
The penetration seems to be gone.
@NTA said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
A nice side step run beating numerous players from the sideline bench to the middle of the park where the ball didn’t come near him.
Difficult when the ball can't even leave the lineout.
I think @antipodean commented above about Jordan not beating a single defender - TBH it would help if the inside ball did enough work to create space. Tonight the Argies were reading the attack well because it is basic as shit, 2nd-man dropoff pass stuff.
Test rugby has lately a dearth of creative set piece play due in part to improved defences. I think it is time some smart rugby people figured out how to bring it back.
Watch the Australia match
@Steve said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
when was the last time you seen an Allblack dotting down under the sticks with a few support runners close by.
Look at the Ellis park tries. Scooter, Havili, Samisoni....barely crossing the whitewash. Ditto Frizell in the first test he barely touched the chalk with his consolation try.
They are fighting for every inch at the moment. They havnt scored an easy try all season.Where is the scalpel? The Line breaks? Quick outside backs cutting teams to pieces.
Looking at highlights from 2018 and I see Dmac, Laumape ,Ben Smith, Beauden queuing up on outside shoulders for easy run ins.
The penetration seems to be gone.
Ireland did it, it requires depth and deception. We have ZERO deception in our play, it is so easy to read
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Everyone knows that Foster is a shit coach, that's not up for debate. But the turning point in this match was subbing off our front row. That's on our forwards coach, right? Does Ryan also have a hard-on for Taylor?
I doubt that was Ryan. It was pure Foster.
I dunno if you can just absolve the forwards coach there, especially when it's a Crusaders man subbing on a Crusaders front row. I'd be really interested to know whose idea that was, as it cost us the game.
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@NTA said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
A nice side step run beating numerous players from the sideline bench to the middle of the park where the ball didn’t come near him.
Difficult when the ball can't even leave the lineout.
I think @antipodean commented above about Jordan not beating a single defender - TBH it would help if the inside ball did enough work to create space. Tonight the Argies were reading the attack well because it is basic as shit, 2nd-man dropoff pass stuff.
Test rugby has lately a dearth of creative set piece play due in part to improved defences. I think it is time some smart rugby people figured out how to bring it back.
Watch the Australia match
I have. We are largely the same but add a few angles. That try to McReight was great tho - excellent use of variation and putting the ball into space in front of the man, rather than at the man was lovely.
The first try was just pace that the Boks couldn't handle.
Y'know what pisses me off about this game? We were the better team throughout.
It was like one one those soccer games where the inferior team just kept in touch and snuck a breakout goal then did just enough to stay in front.
Same here. We were the better team but couldn't land the killer blow.
We just kept leaving the door open for them.
@Tim said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Sam Cane gets by from being a nice guy from the middle of nowhere. He is an absolutely terrible rugby player. He should get the fuck out of the All Blacks.
I really like him. I think it was circa 2016 he put on the most dominant tackling display I've ever seen against Wales in Cardiff. It was frightening.
But those days are long gone and he is yesterdays man.
He should have been picked for the RWC semi final but Hansen Guardiola'd himself by trying something mental in a knockout game.
The talk about succession planning is a farce when Hansens assistant gets the head coach role and then gives the same bloke that was dropped for the semi the captains armband.
@Steve said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Tim said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Sam Cane gets by from being a nice guy from the middle of nowhere. He is an absolutely terrible rugby player. He should get the fuck out of the All Blacks.
I really like him. I think it was circa 2016 he put on the most dominant tackling display I've ever seen against Wales in Cardiff. It was frightening.
But those days are long gone and he is yesterdays man.
He should have been picked for the RWC semi final but Hansen Guardiola'd himself by trying something mental in a knockout game.
The talk about succession planning is a farce when Hansens assistant gets the head coach role and then gives the same bloke that was dropped for the semi the captains armband.
Somebody made a highlight reel of those tackles and it was stunning viewing. I really want to find it again. it was on planet rugby.
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Y'know what pisses me off about this game? We were the better team throughout.
It was like one one those soccer games where the inferior team just kept in touch and snuck a breakout goal then did just enough to stay in front.
Same here. We were the better team but couldn't land the killer blow.
We just kept leaving the door open for them.
By making the same stupid mistakes, over and over and over and over
@Tim said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Sam Cane gets by from being a nice guy from the middle of nowhere. He is an absolutely terrible rugby player. He should get the fuck out of the All Blacks.
Jeepers this is about your tenth post about Cane.
No more ferning for you tonight, go and have a lie down.
@booboo said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Y'know what pisses me off about this game? We were the better team throughout.
It was like one one those soccer games where the inferior team just kept in touch and snuck a breakout goal then did just enough to stay in front.
Same here. We were the better team but couldn't land the killer blow.
We just keot leaving the door open for them.
It's almost like our individual players are good but the team is not working together. I wonder where the buck stops with taht?
Yup McLeod, the bus driver, and the physio. Sack the incompetent piston wristed gibbons
@Steve said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Steve said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Tim said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
Sam Cane gets by from being a nice guy from the middle of nowhere. He is an absolutely terrible rugby player. He should get the fuck out of the All Blacks.
I really like him. I think it was circa 2016 he put on the most dominant tackling display I've ever seen against Wales in Cardiff. It was frightening.
But those days are long gone and he is yesterdays man.
He should have been picked for the RWC semi final but Hansen Guardiola'd himself by trying something mental in a knockout game.
The talk about succession planning is a farce when Hansens assistant gets the head coach role and then gives the same bloke that was dropped for the semi the captains armband.
Somebody made a highlight reel of those tackles and it was stunning viewing. I really want to find it again. it was on planet rugby.
Paul: 'One of the great ABs defensive performances'
/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/MPCJK3HWXV367XVA6VY5ZUDU5E.jpg)
Cane gave one of the great defensive openside performances of the professional era.
it was this game. Terminator stuff.
@Tim said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MN5 He was fucking shit!
And despite what you want, Ardie should be in his shirt and role. Then we can get a proper 8, and a 7/captain that plays the full 80, leads from the front and has been the ABs best player for years. Yes his captaincy is not the best, but neither was McCaws when he started
@MN5 said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@Tim said in All Blacks v Pumas 1:
@MN5 He was fucking shit!
He was no Codie Taylor
Thank fuck there's only one