The Front Row
World cup knock out stages next year, starting front row De Groot, Samasoni and Newell.
Newell has got the prop gig sorted in spades, doesn't try to be anything but a prop, does his core duties, starting at scrum time, and then the other duties of a tighty, and lastly ball running. For Crusaders he is more than handy with ball in hand, and I'm sure at test level it will come too. Made for test rugby.
Angus out to pasture, never been a good enough scrummager in my book. Was selected originally thanks to about a million injuries, never because he was the best option. OK around the field, but first jobs first please!
Laulala can only scrum, offers nothing around the field anymore. And while a good TH, not a world beater, so he can bugger off too. Started going downhill after he left the Chiefs - less gametime at the Blues maybe?
Ofa the enigma. He threatened for years to be the next 'great' TH. But then he will forget how to scrum, or tackle, or ball handle at various stages through a season. Offers more than the above 2 though. So keep him.
Lomax, I'm still suffering from the hiding he took against the Waratahs! But he went OK against the Boers, I thought he'd get his head driven out through his own bung hole, but he did surprisingly well. He now needs to scrum at this level consistently, and he could rack up a few tests.
LH prop, I'm on the de Groot bandwagon. This guy to me is a natural born meataxe. Big, strong, and wants to dominate in all aspects of play, which is the attitude you need as a prop at the top level. I think he and Newell will be our next Franks/Woodcock duo. We've not had a genuine world class pair of props since those world cup winners.
Moody can be world class, and won't have a lot of milage on the clock by RWC, so if he can stay injury free, and get time at the coalface, he could push de Groot to the bench. It would be my preferred pair.
Aiden Ross is another prop who is there for his core duties first and foremost, so is my 3rd choice. I expect the more time he gets at test level the better he'll be too, not afraid to do the hard yards in the dark of rucks and mauls.
Bower, if he keeps improving as he has this season, he could force himself into the mix too. If Moody doesn't come good, Bower may get the nod come match day.
Big Karl was a stupid choice in this season for the All Blacks. He was buggering off to France, was never the incumbent, so can't see he had a lot to pass on to the new props. If it had been a Woody, with 100 tests than yes. But it wasn't, you may as well have stuck a Norris in to get a bit of experience at AB level. Big Karl, like Laulala, went downhill as a prop after joining the Blues. Less game time etc, and he system turning into a bouncer again!
Hookers, Samasoni, Taylor and Brodie McAlister.
Dane Coles, sorry me old mate, your time is up. Unless, unless you get a full season with the Hurricanes, injury free, and play bloody well. So no, you're gone.
Asafo Aumua fourth option. If Coles is injured all season, he'll get a chance to Push for AB selection. But he needs to get his throwing to international standard. Everything else is there already!
Taylor looks like he's distracted at the moment. Perhaps off field problems? I back him to hit the field next season refreshed and aiming for RWC glory. He'll form a 1-2 punch with McAlister that will be the envy of other Super sides.
McAlister, he looks another Crusaders front rower bred to play test rugby. Physically looks the part, a block of a man. I think he'd excell.
Kurt Eklund, I don't think he'd let the side down, but I think he'll only get in if there are a run of injuries. A bit like Angus at TH!
So there you go, youngsters for the RWC for me!
@BerniesCorner said in All Black props:
Ryan's input has been sensational
except feek is in charge of scrum unless something has changed
@Crucial said in All Black props:
@Bones said in All Black props:
@African-Monkey said in All Black props:
@nostrildamus Laulala didn't play in the 1st test but yes, he is still our best TH scrummager. I'd still have him personally.
I just feel like that's going down the road of selecting a hooker because he's the best thrower.
Agree. The way scrums are reffed these days, dominance is only rewarded when it is complete and utter destruction. Against the big teams you only need to be able to hold your side up because sure as hell they can and even if you can get them to budge it won't give you much advantage.
In other words being a full package of carrying, tackling, passing and scrummaging totally trumps being the strongest scrummer.
What's with all the warm fuzzies on Moody? He went downhill impact wise ages ago. As I said earlier I see the value in having some old heads around so we don't have to go to deep into the pool of younger tyros but they aren't where I'd be focussing.
You obviously weren’t watching Super rugby earlier this season where Moody was getting back to his best prior to his injury. His ruck work is still very good and he was carrying the ball more like the old days.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Black props:
@Crucial said in All Black props:
@Bones said in All Black props:
@African-Monkey said in All Black props:
@nostrildamus Laulala didn't play in the 1st test but yes, he is still our best TH scrummager. I'd still have him personally.
I just feel like that's going down the road of selecting a hooker because he's the best thrower.
Agree. The way scrums are reffed these days, dominance is only rewarded when it is complete and utter destruction. Against the big teams you only need to be able to hold your side up because sure as hell they can and even if you can get them to budge it won't give you much advantage.
In other words being a full package of carrying, tackling, passing and scrummaging totally trumps being the strongest scrummer.
What's with all the warm fuzzies on Moody? He went downhill impact wise ages ago. As I said earlier I see the value in having some old heads around so we don't have to go to deep into the pool of younger tyros but they aren't where I'd be focussing.You obviously weren’t watching Super rugby earlier this season where Moody was getting back to his best prior to his injury. His ruck work is still very good and he was carrying the ball more like the old days.
I did see that but I don't share the same optimism that at his age a second knee surgery will bring him back to the levels a young gun can provide. As I said, I am more than happy for him to be in the squad as he would still be in the top three best options (especially for experience and opposed training) but don't think in comes back and supplants the newbies in the pecking order.
@Bones Fair enough point you make but we're still conceding penalties on our TH side at scrumtime and it will cost us in future tests which is why I'd rather shore things up on that side especially against the better scrummaging sides. Against the Aussies and Argies i think we could get away without him, but he's still good to carry in the squad.
IamGroot looks handy. Persist.
Lomax: not convinced. And he's an Aussie FFS!
Bower was better on the weekend than i anticipated - worth further evaluation.
Newell: haven't seen enough.
Of those not playing:
Laulala known quantity: good at scrum, great at brain snap penalties.
Ofa: you're missing him I think.
Again it comes down to second row doing their job and combinations in the front row and tight five
@NTA said in All Black props:
IamGroot looks handy. Persist.
Lomax: not convinced. And he's an Aussie FFS!
And where do you think Ethan De Groot was born? Forged in fire in the bellows of Mordor?
@nostrildamus said in All Black props:
@NTA said in All Black props:
IamGroot looks handy. Persist.
Lomax: not convinced. And he's an Aussie FFS!
And where do you think Ethan De Groot was born? Forged in fire in the bellows of Mordor?
Gold Coast. So Queensland, which is close enough
@NTA said in All Black props:
Gold Coast. So Queensland, which is close enough
NTA in shock-post supporting QLDer.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Black props:
Does Samasoni have a history of poor throwing? Never really took too much notice of him prior to last year. I ask because there were a couple of concerning throws from him on the weekend, throws that if somebody else had done them they would have copped a bit of shit.
Anton Oliver retired years ago
@Crazy-Horse yes Samasoni throwing was shite to start, I'm comfy with it now!
As for learning to throw, yes it can be taught, but training field versus match day and live opposition, it's the mental side of it as much as anything!
@Crazy-Horse yeah he was a shocker for the chiefs at first. The more his arms get shorteyin relation to his width, the better he gets.
@African-Monkey said in All Black props:
Fair enough point you make but we're still conceding penalties on our TH side at scrumtime
I agree, but he's not immune to that either, he's not rock solid at scrum time. Then you've got to take into consideration the extra penalties given away elsewhere and the effect the loss of impact around the field will have. Definite squad member for sure though.
@Bones said in All Black props:
@Crazy-Horse yeah he was a shocker for the chiefs at first. The more his arms get shorteyin relation to his width, the better he gets.
Hopefully it was a one off then and he doesn't regress!
@Crazy-Horse said in All Black props:
@Bones said in All Black props:
@Crazy-Horse yeah he was a shocker for the chiefs at first. The more his arms get shorteyin relation to his width, the better he gets.
Hopefully it was a one off then and he doesn't regress!
Oh nah it's a long time ago now. He didn't really get used much because he'd come on and throw the ball to the oppo!
@chimoaus said in All Black props:
I think the beauty with Groot, Sami, and Newell is their ceiling is very high compared to the others. With good coaching etc they should kick on to be a very good combination for us going forward.
Been a while since I've seen props that young come in and look that comfortable. Our hookers generally tend to go on forever too and hit their peak approaching 30, so bodes well for a 25 yo ST.
@NTA said in All Black props:
IamGroot looks handy. Persist.
Lomax: not convinced. And he's an Aussie FFS!
Bower was better on the weekend than i anticipated - worth further evaluation.
Newell: haven't seen enough.
Of those not playing:
Laulala known quantity: good at scrum, great at brain snap penalties.
Ofa: you're missing him I think.
Again it comes down to second row doing their job and combinations in the front row and tight five
Don’t disagree with any of that. Thoughts on Ross and Ta’avao?
@pakman only bit I disagree with is Bower - thought he performed as expected. I think he's proven his worth through previous evaluation this year.
@Bones said in All Black props:
@pakman only bit I disagree with is Bower - thought he performed as expected. I think he's proven his worth through previous evaluation this year.
For me, he's in a similar category to Ofa, in that scrummaging largely good, but can have wobbles, and pretty good round the park, if inconsistent. Ofa ceiling much higher, and was exceptional in a couple of Blues games this year.
@pakman I'll take test performance over SR and Bower has been very good this year. A blip in SA1 but a shed load more good than bad in every other performance.
@Bones said in All Black props:
@pakman I'll take test performance over SR and Bower has been very good this year. A blip in SA1 but a shed load more good than bad in every other performance.
He's in my current three. The wild card is if Joe's knee doesn't come right. He is world class at LH, and occasionally shows glimpses round the field of what he did when younger. Ross/Norrie, I guess.
@BartMan said in All Black props:
World cup knock out stages next year, starting front row De Groot, Samasoni and Newell.
Newell has got the prop gig sorted in spades, doesn't try to be anything but a prop, does his core duties, starting at scrum time, and then the other duties of a tighty, and lastly ball running. For Crusaders he is more than handy with ball in hand, and I'm sure at test level it will come too. Made for test rugby.
Angus out to pasture, never been a good enough scrummager in my book. Was selected originally thanks to about a million injuries, never because he was the best option. OK around the field, but first jobs first please!
Laulala can only scrum, offers nothing around the field anymore. And while a good TH, not a world beater, so he can bugger off too. Started going downhill after he left the Chiefs - less gametime at the Blues maybe?
Ofa the enigma. He threatened for years to be the next 'great' TH. But then he will forget how to scrum, or tackle, or ball handle at various stages through a season. Offers more than the above 2 though. So keep him.
Lomax, I'm still suffering from the hiding he took against the Waratahs! But he went OK against the Boers, I thought he'd get his head driven out through his own bung hole, but he did surprisingly well. He now needs to scrum at this level consistently, and he could rack up a few tests.
LH prop, I'm on the de Groot bandwagon. This guy to me is a natural born meataxe. Big, strong, and wants to dominate in all aspects of play, which is the attitude you need as a prop at the top level. I think he and Newell will be our next Franks/Woodcock duo. We've not had a genuine world class pair of props since those world cup winners.
Moody can be world class, and won't have a lot of milage on the clock by RWC, so if he can stay injury free, and get time at the coalface, he could push de Groot to the bench. It would be my preferred pair.
Aiden Ross is another prop who is there for his core duties first and foremost, so is my 3rd choice. I expect the more time he gets at test level the better he'll be too, not afraid to do the hard yards in the dark of rucks and mauls.
Bower, if he keeps improving as he has this season, he could force himself into the mix too. If Moody doesn't come good, Bower may get the nod come match day.
Big Karl was a stupid choice in this season for the All Blacks. He was buggering off to France, was never the incumbent, so can't see he had a lot to pass on to the new props. If it had been a Woody, with 100 tests than yes. But it wasn't, you may as well have stuck a Norris in to get a bit of experience at AB level. Big Karl, like Laulala, went downhill as a prop after joining the Blues. Less game time etc, and he system turning into a bouncer again!
Hookers, Samasoni, Taylor and Brodie McAlister.
Dane Coles, sorry me old mate, your time is up. Unless, unless you get a full season with the Hurricanes, injury free, and play bloody well. So no, you're gone.
Asafo Aumua fourth option. If Coles is injured all season, he'll get a chance to Push for AB selection. But he needs to get his throwing to international standard. Everything else is there already!
Taylor looks like he's distracted at the moment. Perhaps off field problems? I back him to hit the field next season refreshed and aiming for RWC glory. He'll form a 1-2 punch with McAlister that will be the envy of other Super sides.
McAlister, he looks another Crusaders front rower bred to play test rugby. Physically looks the part, a block of a man. I think he'd excell.
Kurt Eklund, I don't think he'd let the side down, but I think he'll only get in if there are a run of injuries. A bit like Angus at TH!
So there you go, youngsters for the RWC for me!
Backs win rugby games….
Good post old man.
@BartMan Excellent post. Is Tamaiti Williams good enough to make the AB squad?
@BartMan Good stuff!
Very interesting your pick of McAlister. I haven't seen much of him, but when he finally got back from injury for the Crusaders he was very impressive with limited opportunities. Ryan will know all about him.
Wellington actually had a couple of promising looking hookers trapped behind Coles and Aumua - Thompson was one, the other's name escapes me right now.
@NTA said in All Black props:
Lomax: not convinced. And he's an Aussie FFS!
Being born in Aussie doesn't make you an Aussie (according to your govt). John might have done the prudent thing and not applied for citizenship for young Tyrel so as not to taint him.
@Chris-B said in All Black props:
@BartMan Good stuff!
Very interesting your pick of McAlister. I haven't seen much of him, but when he finally got back from injury for the Crusaders he was very impressive with limited opportunities. Ryan will know all about him.
Wellington actually had a couple of promising looking hookers trapped behind Coles and Aumua - Thompson was one, the other's name escapes me right now.
He's wisely come home.
@sparky said in All Black props:
@BartMan Excellent post. Is Tamaiti Williams good enough to make the AB squad?
Forgot about him. He'll be starting in 2027 rwc final. De groot on the bench.
@Nepia said in All Black props:
@Chris-B said in All Black props:
@BartMan Good stuff!
Very interesting your pick of McAlister. I haven't seen much of him, but when he finally got back from injury for the Crusaders he was very impressive with limited opportunities. Ryan will know all about him.
Wellington actually had a couple of promising looking hookers trapped behind Coles and Aumua - Thompson was one, the other's name escapes me right now.
He's wisely come home.
Looks handy but needs games at super level.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Black props:
Backs win rugby games
Forward win rugby games, backs decide by how much. - Bob Scottt.
Yes it can and he can also be maniacal in practicing to make perfect.
If he doesn’t become a regular AB/starter it is an absolute waste of potentially the best hooker of his generation.
Hopefully it clicks for him soon as I can see him playing most of his career in France
@sparky
Tamaiti Williams will be an All Black, that's for sure. He showed impressive power for the Maoris vs Ireland when he scrummed on the LH side. I am not convinced by his scrummaging when he is playing TH. He is still a bit lazy in the rucks but his carryings are always good in terms of meters won.
@cgrant said in All Black props:
@sparky
Tamaiti Williams will be an All Black, that's for sure. He showed impressive power for the Maoris vs Ireland when he scrummed on the LH side. I am not convinced by his scrummaging when he is playing TH. He is still a bit lazy in the rucks but his carryings are always good in terms of meters won.
fitness is the concern
Rugby Pass:
Ian Foster has somewhat of a conundrum on his hands.
While elder heads Nepo Laulala, Ofa Tuungafasi, Karl Tu’inukuafe and Angus Ta’avao were all selected in the front row for the All Blacks‘ July series with Ireland, injuries and a change in tack saw the former three absent from the more recent trip to South Africa.
30-year-old George Bower – in his second year as an All Black – started the season as the side’s first-choice loosehead prop in the absence of the sidelined Joe Moody while Laulala and Tuungafasi shared starting duties on the tighthead side of the scrum throughout July.
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Bower was again employed in the No 1 jersey in the first leg of the South African tour with the experienced Ta’avao partnering him in the front-row but after a middling performance in Mbombela, coach Foster decided to change things up by handing spots in the match-day 23 to Ethan de Groot, Tyrel Lomax and Fletcher Newell – three players who weren’t even included in the squad for July.
All in all, nine props have been handed opportunities throughout the All Blacks’ opening five Tests of the season – and nine props certainly won’t be required for the remainder of The Rugby Championship, which will see NZ take on Argentina and Australia over the coming four matches.
Injuries to Laulala and Tuungafasi paved the way for the inexperienced duo of Lomax and the uncapped Newell to feature against the Springboks but the former two will make their returns to the field for their respective provincial sides this weekend and, as such, should be available to take on Los Pumas in Christchurch on August 27. As such, Foster will need to make the call whether to stick with the new breed of props or revert to the more experienced options.
Had Foster fallen on his sword and been replaced, a new coach may have been able to put loyalty aside and opt for the younger models but that’s probably less likely with the status quo being maintained. Perhaps the biggest fault Foster has shown throughout his tenure in charge of the All Blacks is his commitment to sticking with incumbents (both players and coaches) when there’s been an obvious need for change.
Hooker Samisoni Taukei’aho was used off the bench in the opening two matches of the season when it was clear to all and sundry that he should have been Foster’s first-choice hooker and it came as a surprise to no one when the 25-year-old was one of the best players throughout the two Springboks clashes. His elevation into the No 2 jersey came far too late and the same could be said for the promotions of Ethan de Groot and Fletcher Newell, who Foster was almost forced to play after injuries prevented him from sticking with the tried and tested.
The likes of De Groot and Newell are young and still not yet entirely proven but they’re also clearly long-term options in the All Blacks scrum. That doesn’t necessarily mean they’re not ready to be regularly playing big Test matches, however.
“For [De Groot and Lomax] to start in that test match, without a doubt the biggest Test that they’ve had in their careers, to perform the way they did was awesome,” said All Blacks captain Sam Cane following the 35-22 win in Johannesburg.
“I’m really stoked for those guys, it makes for some really healthy competition going forward.”