The All Blacks old pattern
I actually see a bit of light at the end of the tunnel once we get new coaches in.
We're simply not direct enough and are still playing our outdated gameplan which went out of fashion in 2017 of Smith giving it to Havili/Savea in the midfield to set up first phase, Smith then going back down the blindside to the next pod hoping to create a mismatch which we haven't actually seen created from this in a while which leads to our second phase, and from that phase, Smith then goes short to the next pod to go round the back to either the blindside winger/Jordie Barrett who receives it at 10 to try and create extra numbers out wide which again, looked the part about 7 years ago, but rush defences from about 2017 have figured a way to counter it and yet we still persist with it.
It's ok to still use that play every now and again, but we aren't creating any mismatches out wide, we just use it as a default play and it gets used religiously both here at test level and at SR too. It looks great doing it at an inferior level like SR, but at the big boys level, international sides adapt quickly, they're not stupid, and this play has also become a problem because our forwards have almost been trained so much to move the ball once receiving it to the point that they have forgotten how to carry the ball into contact.
We seriously need to get our forwards carrying closer to the ruck as we certainly have players in there who can carry, but we don't do it. We have a more than capable halfback who is not being allowed to give our forwards a license to do it as well. Smith needs to do a lot more to get our backs some better ball and it needs to start by getting guys like Barrett, Akira, Ardie, Taukeiaho etc running off him, and forcing guys like Marx to tackle a bit more, instead of him just scanning around David Pocock style.
It's as if these coaches have no trust in our forwards to string phases together to grind us up field as we don't seem to like going more than 2 phases before going wide no matter what the situation is. Simply put, we need to earn the right to go wide which we seem hellbent on not doing, and everyone is being affected by it.
I think we do have the players at our disposal, obviously with a few that need to be moved on and quickly, and results will be positive, but the tactics are outdated and a new coaching team is needed asap which we all pretty much know.
@Tim said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
De Groot was busy, but his carrying wasn't effective.
Why is it that everyone that comes into the ABs forgets to pump their legs on contact? Akira, Frizell, Vai'i, all the props, all the hookers except one turn out their best Owen Franks impressions in black.
@Tim said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
When was the last time we got our offload game going? Against Australia last year?
Scooter made a very good hard run, was looking for the offload in traffic but Bower ran a wrong line.
I think ST got one but can’t remember many others
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Notable how improved the maul defence was in the first half. Ryan showing his credentials early - Springboks got no gain from trying to maul.
Except for the one where 3 Springboks marched 35m up the field untouched it otherwise looked quite solid
@Nevorian said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
The inside pass for Jordan’s break was a thing of beauty- he was away for all money if it hadn’t been for the slight ankle tap. Makes me wonder why we aren’t using our wingers or Reiko more like this because it looks like a relatively easy move to execute
Still have to pick your moments because we’ve run the inside ball in times past to no or little effect.
What was pleasing about it was that we actually played some footy with that move. A bit of structure and a bit of instinct.
The most disappointing thing about last night was we played so little footy and that made it way to easy for the Boks.
@Nevorian said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@antipodean said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Notable how improved the maul defence was in the first half. Ryan showing his credentials early - Springboks got no gain from trying to maul.
Except for the one where 3 Springboks marched 35m up the field untouched it otherwise looked quite solid
That can happen with mauls though, especially when it is't a full lineout (I think that was the case). Takes little to roll around the defenders and they have to completely disengage. Maul rules are really dumb
@Nepia said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
I like him as a player but I don't think BB has the kicking ability and pressure to start at 10, let alone marshalling the backline. He hasn't played well under Foster at any rate.
I'm agnostic in the BB v Mo debate, but I think Mo needs to get a start next week. Give him 80 minutes to see what he can do.
Also, you just replied to yourself.
It was late and maybe I was lonely! I was going to reply to a poster then lost it in the flood of venting
@Nepia said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
I like him as a player but I don't think BB has the kicking ability and pressure to start at 10, let alone marshalling the backline. He hasn't played well under Foster at any rate.
I'm agnostic in the BB v Mo debate, but I think Mo needs to get a start next week. Give him 80 minutes to see what he can do.
Oh and I agree with you, plus BB needs a rest after that landing. Don't know what JB's injury was but it looked serious.
@Crucial said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
I hate to say it because I like his abilities but Rieko at 13 doesn't help our structure. He still comes across as having his number 13 training wheels on. He got hooked last night and maybe we will see him on the wing next game with Jordan at 15. Goodhue at 13 may just give us some solidity to work around.
Great player but still better at wing and doesn't seem to distribute at international level like Goodhue or Conrad could..
plus he doesn't seem to know how to inject himself and get hands on the ball...not like Reece anyway...
@MN5 said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Tim said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Wasn't going to bother posting about the 2nd half, but Lomax penalised at the scrum basically as soon as is subbed on. Can't think of a more out of form prop in NZ?
I can.
Nepo Laulala.
Actually maybe not cos I can’t think of a time when he was actually in form.
about 2-3 years ago he looked ok. Maybe too much strength not enough skills work?
@ploughboy said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
all i can say is when you need some luck you get nothing. did we get one 50/50 call go our way.
maybe but I don't recall either.
@Joans-Town-Jones said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Canes4life I like the cut of Sotutu's jib. As long as he can muscle up on D, I like him.
I think in an interview Sotutu admitted that D was a workon but I also like him, skilled, intelligent player, and other blues fans can correct me but he looked good at disrupting the ball in mauls...(long arms and smart player)...
@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@MN5 said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Tim said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
Wasn't going to bother posting about the 2nd half, but Lomax penalised at the scrum basically as soon as is subbed on. Can't think of a more out of form prop in NZ?
I can.
Nepo Laulala.
Actually maybe not cos I can’t think of a time when he was actually in form.
about 2-3 years ago he looked ok. Maybe too much strength not enough skills work?
Oh he sure looks the part and I’m sure his gym numbers are pretty incredible but fuck me, in open play he makes Owen Franks look like Waisale Serevi.
@MN5 Franks would have been handy last night. Don't think the props made many metres, maybe De Groot did? Edit: as running is not Franks strength, he is more the heavy lettuce type of athlete. But for the mauls would he be useful? And we're really missing a bull-like prop, leaving it to Sami T.
@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@MN5 Franks would have been handy last night. Don't think the props made many metres, maybe De Groot did?
Bower made 2, twice as much as Cane, and 2 more than all the other front rowers together
@Machpants said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@MN5 Franks would have been handy last night. Don't think the props made many metres, maybe De Groot did?
Bower made 2, twice as much as Cane, and 2 more than all the other front rowers together
thanks for that. Yes he has played well, I wrote him off after his first appearance. Looks to have come up to speed at international level.
I'm afraid Cane isn't going to make many metres any more. Hang on, are you saying Sami T. didn't make many metres? I must have been watching the wrong game!
@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Machpants said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@MN5 Franks would have been handy last night. Don't think the props made many metres, maybe De Groot did?
Bower made 2, twice as much as Cane, and 2 more than all the other front rowers together
thanks for that. Yes he has played well, I wrote him off after his first appearance. Looks to have come up to speed at international level.
I'm afraid Cane isn't going to make many metres any more. Hang on, are you saying Sami T. didn't make many metres? I must have been watching the wrong game!
Sorry I meant other props. Coles made 0 Sami 15 I think
First up the good news
- That ground is fantastic for rugby, and the Boks fans filled it. Well done.
- The officials were very good
- Mo Salah did a good job filling in at 9 for the Boks
There are lots of "learnings" for the ABs. Just need some minor adjustments and we'll be fine
Starting with the forwards
- Cane was the most ineffectual AB forward out there. Always a tad late to the breakdown, so no turnovers. No big tackles. No big offensive plays. Not a line out option
- Props need to clean out better
Backs
- BB looked good. At FB. Mounga has to start, and if you are not going to put Jordan at 15 then put BB there. Jordie can either bench or play 12
- The midfield is just catastrophic at the moment. Neither Havili nor Ioane are midfielders and we are just awful there
- The Boks easily won the aerial recovery battle
Surely Foster must go?!
@Machpants said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Machpants said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@MN5 Franks would have been handy last night. Don't think the props made many metres, maybe De Groot did?
Bower made 2, twice as much as Cane, and 2 more than all the other front rowers together
thanks for that. Yes he has played well, I wrote him off after his first appearance. Looks to have come up to speed at international level.
I'm afraid Cane isn't going to make many metres any more. Hang on, are you saying Sami T. didn't make many metres? I must have been watching the wrong game!Sorry I meant other props. Coles made 0 Sami 15 I think
that makes sense 
We really missed an opportunity to blood new talent (esp fwds) pre-RWC, not sure there is much time left...
Interesting the Ioane boys are in the gun again. AI worked his ring out on the first half. Made tackles. Hit rucks. Won lineouts.
RI never got the fucking ball so don't know what he was supposed to distribute.
I thought all the loose forwards worked hard. But none had any huge impact on the game but can't fault the effort at all. Same across the pack.
We're missing points of difference. High quality players in most positions. And a plan to get the best of them.
What fucks me off about our attack are, our most dangerous players are RI, Jordan and Clarke. And we have no clue how to get them in to the game in a dangerous way.
Clarke's break was everything we have talked about, he just beat 2 dudes off his own bat. Every other time he got the ball he was standing still, on the touch line. Same with Jordan. RI got.even less than that.
Shit house.
Just on Gardner
Before I start, not for a second is he the reason we lost.
But he didn't fucking help
Some of his breakdown interpretation was completely fucked. Marks didn't release one, and was laying on the ground for another. The turnover after Clarke won the kickoff there wasn't a Bok on their feet. Cane legit won a turnover, was pulled forward by the boks, and penalised. They were all massive calls.
The scrum calls were probably justified. But the one that pissed me was the very first free kick. The only reason there was a scrum was Faf fucked himself up. He free kicks us for him not being happy with the set up with no discussion. Then penalised us. And the tone was set.
Looooong fucking water break when ever the Boks looked gassed.
Just played directly in to their hands. And we did nothing to adapt
@mariner4life They're easy targets thats why.
As I said earlier, we're just poorly coached with a well outdated gameplan. Can't say anyone individually had a howler (apart from Coles).
@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@98blueandgold said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@stodders Agree 100% with that, I said that in an earlier post up above. but past that point still I think we have seen the writing on the wall for a few years in terms of our development of players.
Everything goes in cycles. SA lost their way for a while and everyone talked about the Boks sinking into obscurity. Now, they are reigning world champions and consistently in the top 3 in the world.
Maybe NZ needs to consider whether the development pathways are finding the right types of characters, not just the most talented players/athletes.
Players like Shannon Frizell aren't the future. ABs need some fight, some mongrel. They don't need bullies who go timid when the opposition fight back. Times have changed and cameras pick up the dark arts. But ABs need more Samisoni's - teak tough and ready to fight for every yard. Forget the fancy plays Simplify the gameplan like the Boks had to and start again, from step 1. Then build up.
Great idea but which of our current crop of players looks like they actually want to play a simply dirty style of game? They all want to stand out in the wide open spaces and run with the ball and express themselves, not play a role to enable others to do that
@Kruse said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
You almost think they'd do better if they said "Fuck it, let's just go out there and have some fun - we might not win, but at least we'd be enjoying ourselves a bit"
B.Barrett in particular - whenever he has a blinder, it looks like he's just having a bit of a laugh with his mates and a rugby ball.
I don't know in which direction the Cause-Effect relationship is... but I've thought for a while that yeah... "give some basic strategy, but don't overfill their stupid little rugby-player heads - then pat them on the arse and let them go out on the field and have some fun" might be a decent coaching approach for some (not necessarily all) players.
We hear they are a pretty together bunch off the field, but there seems a lot of tension and stress in the team on the field which is translating to their play. I noted Ardie being given a talking to by the Ref for back-chat - can't remember the last time I say that with a snr AB.
It's like riding the Honda on a gravel road. If you concentrate on not falling off you tense up, you will.
@African-Monkey said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Canes4life God he wasn't that bad lol. I thought the loose trio worked hard out there on defence and it wasn't the reason why we lost either. You clearly have an agenda against the guy. Its the coaching thats the problem.
I actually see a bit of light at the end of the tunnel once we get new coaches in. We're simply not direct enough and are still playing our outdated gameplan which went out of fashion in 2017 of Smith giving it to Havili/Savea in the midfield to set up first phase, Smith then going back down the blindside to the next pod hoping to create a mismatch which we haven't actually seen created from this in a while which leads to our second phase, and from that phase, Smith then goes short to the next pod to go round the back to either the blindside winger/Jordie Barrett who receives it at 10 to try and create extra numbers out wide which again, looked the part about 7 years ago, but rush defences from about 2017 have figured a way to counter it and yet we still persist with it. Its ok to still use that play every now and again, but we aren't creating any mismatches out wide, we just use it as a default play and it gets used religiously both here at test level and at SR too. It looks great doing it at an inferior level like SR, but at the big boys level, international sides adapt quickly, they're not stupid, and this play has also become a problem because our forwards have almost been trained so much to move the ball once receiving it to the point that they have forgotten how to carry the ball into contact.
We seriously need to get our forwards carrying closer to the ruck as we certainly have players in there who can carry, but we don't do it. We have a more than capable halfback who is not being allowed to give our forwards a license to do it as well. Smith needs to do a lot more to get our backs some better ball and it needs to start by getting guys like Barrett, Akira, Ardie, Taukeiaho etc. running off him, and forcing guys like Marx to tackle a bit more, instead of him just scanning around David Pocock style. Its as if these coaches have no trust in our forwards to string phases together to grind us up field as we don't seem to like going more than 2 phases before going wide no matter what the situation is. Simply put, we need to earn the right to go wide which we seem hellbent on not doing, and everyone is being affected by it.
I think we do have the players at our disposal, obviously with a few that need to be moved on and quickly, and results will be positive, but the tactics are outdated and a new coaching team is needed asap which we all pretty much know.
Great post mate, agree completely. I'd actually go as far to say that ball in hand we have one of the better AB packs - ST (who is a very special player), SB, Akira, and Ardie are all very effective close in to the ruck, they all make good yardage the majority of the time and we could really build a game plan around that ability. But we just don't use it at all, which is probably the most frustrating thing about this whole mess.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Kruse said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
You almost think they'd do better if they said "Fuck it, let's just go out there and have some fun - we might not win, but at least we'd be enjoying ourselves a bit"
B.Barrett in particular - whenever he has a blinder, it looks like he's just having a bit of a laugh with his mates and a rugby ball.
I don't know in which direction the Cause-Effect relationship is... but I've thought for a while that yeah... "give some basic strategy, but don't overfill their stupid little rugby-player heads - then pat them on the arse and let them go out on the field and have some fun" might be a decent coaching approach for some (not necessarily all) players.We hear they are a pretty together bunch off the field, but there seems a lot of tension and stress in the team on the field which is translating to their play. I noted Ardie being given a talking to by the Ref for back-chat - can't remember the last time I say that with a snr AB.
It's like riding the Honda on a gravel road. If you concentrate on not falling off you tense up, you will.
Yeah.... I wonder - Having somebody like Frizell in the team can't help...
I can't help but think that either he's provided some very convincing context to his story that the coaches/players believe, OR... the coaches don't care, think they something in him (that we don't)... and in that case... I can't see many of the players feeling cool about having a guy like that there.
Sevu Reece - reading between the lines of the court hearing, circumstances, etc - I can understand. Frizell... not so much.
In any case - yeah... they just don't seem like a "together" team. Almost like a collection of professionals, but not a "team".
And with that - I nearly threw up a little in my mouth - as it's that sort of bullshit talk that I despise in MY job, but....
Edit: oh. and yeah it's not just Hondas... I did an offroad riding course on a purpose-built BMW... and every time I tensed up on green-lanes, river-crossings, etc - next thing I knew... I was on the ground, with the bike either on its side, or - in one case - upside-down.
@No-Quarter said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@African-Monkey said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@Canes4life God he wasn't that bad lol. I thought the loose trio worked hard out there on defence and it wasn't the reason why we lost either. You clearly have an agenda against the guy. Its the coaching thats the problem.
I actually see a bit of light at the end of the tunnel once we get new coaches in. We're simply not direct enough and are still playing our outdated gameplan which went out of fashion in 2017 of Smith giving it to Havili/Savea in the midfield to set up first phase, Smith then going back down the blindside to the next pod hoping to create a mismatch which we haven't actually seen created from this in a while which leads to our second phase, and from that phase, Smith then goes short to the next pod to go round the back to either the blindside winger/Jordie Barrett who receives it at 10 to try and create extra numbers out wide which again, looked the part about 7 years ago, but rush defences from about 2017 have figured a way to counter it and yet we still persist with it. Its ok to still use that play every now and again, but we aren't creating any mismatches out wide, we just use it as a default play and it gets used religiously both here at test level and at SR too. It looks great doing it at an inferior level like SR, but at the big boys level, international sides adapt quickly, they're not stupid, and this play has also become a problem because our forwards have almost been trained so much to move the ball once receiving it to the point that they have forgotten how to carry the ball into contact.
We seriously need to get our forwards carrying closer to the ruck as we certainly have players in there who can carry, but we don't do it. We have a more than capable halfback who is not being allowed to give our forwards a license to do it as well. Smith needs to do a lot more to get our backs some better ball and it needs to start by getting guys like Barrett, Akira, Ardie, Taukeiaho etc. running off him, and forcing guys like Marx to tackle a bit more, instead of him just scanning around David Pocock style. Its as if these coaches have no trust in our forwards to string phases together to grind us up field as we don't seem to like going more than 2 phases before going wide no matter what the situation is. Simply put, we need to earn the right to go wide which we seem hellbent on not doing, and everyone is being affected by it.
I think we do have the players at our disposal, obviously with a few that need to be moved on and quickly, and results will be positive, but the tactics are outdated and a new coaching team is needed asap which we all pretty much know.
Great post mate, agree completely. I'd actually go as far to say that ball in hand we have one of the better AB packs - ST (who is a very special player), SB, Akira, and Ardie are all very effective close in to the ruck, they all make good yardage the majority of the time and we could really build a game plan around that ability. But we just don't use it at all, which is probably the most frustrating thing about this whole mess.
I team toured NZ not 3 fucking weeks ago with an attacking pattern that would make ST SB AI AS and our outside backs look like all time greats.
But we stick wedded to this players across the whole width of the field stand shallow shit
Today there was more hands and guys put the back like 7s but they were minor and pretty rubbish tweaks to a substandard plan.
@JC said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
What exactly did Ardie say to Gardiner that wound him up so much?
Edit, talking about when BB had just been poleaxed
My guess would be something like
'Did you fucking see that Angus?'
@MiketheSnow said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@JC said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
What exactly did Ardie say to Gardiner that wound him up so much?
Edit, talking about when BB had just been poleaxed
My guess would be something like
'Did you fucking see that Angus?'
I was thinking "Can I see that gold watch, Angie?"
@taniwharugby said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
have to think that is a min of 3 weeks off for the winger?
Expect BB likely to miss next week, even if just precautionary.
Fuck him off for 5. It won't hurt us
@mariner4life I dont have any issues dropping him, but we know Fozzie is reading a different book...one with big pictures of Frizzell
@taniwharugby said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@mariner4life I dont have any issues dropping him, but we know Fozzie is reading a different book...one with big pictures of Frizzell
That fluffybunny did fucking nothing except get that try. Work all done by Clarke and whoever cleaned the ruck.
Just an awful selection.
@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@kev said in Springboks v All Blacks I:
@stodders you have to win the contact.
I thought ABs did that at times. Problem was, ABs committed too many men to breakdown, so after 2 or 3 phases they were running out of players and Boks were picking them off.
ABs body angles at clearout aren't good enough to clear bodies, so it is taking an extra man to effect it. It doesn't help that refs are allowing players to slow ball down whilst clearly not supporting their bodyweight, but hey, c'est la vie.
What seems to be issue is that oppo tacklers good at impeding ball placement. Then second man patient and gets the latch. Our cleaners aren’t taking him out.
Noticed Ardie several times looking to do same, but all but once Boks body smashed into him, in some cases arguably before he’d joined the ruck.