ABs v Japan - How was Fifita?
There was plenty of analysis of the AB/Japan game, with most posters focusing on the poor display of Jordie Barrett, the excellent cameo of George Bridge, and the assured play of Mo’unga. It’s very hard to watch the game and not feel that Hemopo, Evans, and Bridge need another chance, while it should be the end for NMS. Naholo will really need to improve his tackling or hope for an injury to Ioane if he wants a WC place. Despite making more metres than any other AB (including a try and try assist), he was equally terrible on defence, making as many tackles (5) as he missed (5), the worst one (of many misses) was probably for the last Japanese try on 69 minutes, where he waved through Fukuoka. Add in two turnovers and a penalty and I think I’d rather have something safer out there than him, even against Japan. Fifita
One player who seemed to do himself no favors was Vaea Fifita. From reading the game thread, it seemed that Fifita had the game he would be expected to have by most TSFers – relatively lazy, with little effort to do the hard yards, while enjoying a run or two against the Japanese. Since I missed it live, I saw the highlights, read the match thread, and saw the MOTM voting before seeing the game, so I decided to focus on his play while watching the replay. I’ll draw upon ESPN game stats and my observations in this post, with a break down and a quick summary of where I think he stands.
The Japan game should be exactly made for him – they play fast and loose, and an athlete like him should be able to make a big impression. Did he? Well…. no.
TSF observations are, well, pretty much on the money.
Firstly, the stats. Although he didn’t trouble the scorers, he led the forwards in metres run with 24 from 7 runs, including two defenders beaten. However, he also largely contributed towards our missed tackles, with a 63% tackle completion rate (made 7, missed 4). He and Naholo accounted for more than a third of our missed tackles!
You can see my notes below from watching, but in summary, I get seven runs for about the same amount of metres, with the same number of tackles and misses as ESPN. Furthermore, if I was being kind, about half of his tackles are dominant, although his misses are also pretty bad. I also get about 15 ruck attendances, but in most cases he is just leaning on them, or acting as the pillar. I also note that he rarely moved from the center of the field, so I’ll bet he ran less metres per minute than, well, probably any other forward out there who is not a front rower. It was noticeable how much Hemopo was involved in comparison (although I didn’t specifically observe him), while Papali'i got around very well in his first outing. Finally, Fifita is lucky that the stats don’t look worse for him - he avoided two penalties due ref coaching and them scoring.
Does he deserve to be there?
Not really, IMO. There are equally as good a athletes on the MAB tour, and he’s lucky that Frizzel is injured. I assume that this tour is his last chance to impress, and if he doesn’t then he’ll be out in the cold.
Here’s what I really don’t like about him. He made some good runs, and avoided turnovers, but he didn’t really influence play in any way that we would expect of our main 6 option. When Evans came on, he immediately made an impact, and he did that by getting involved on both sides of the ball, and by making decisions – for example, taking a quick penalty at the 63-minute mark that led to Laumape’s 3rd try.
Fifita was there, and you could say he is unlucky that play didn’t come his way, but perhaps that is the point – he’ll make an impact when others provide him with opportunities. But, Fifita doesn’t seem to seek them out – he’s always two out from the ruck looking for the break– even when we need him doing the hard yards closer in and making strong cleans – and, he just isn’t that guy.
Even a bench-warmer from the Highlanders looks a better bet, as does Evans, who ran for 13 metres and looked more dangerous in a short stint, and probably Hemopo should go to Europe – he got 18 metres, made as many tackles with only miss, and made a much stronger pest of himself at and around the breakdown. I suspect that this tour will be the last time Fifita wears an AB jersey, unless he makes some huge contributions in the remaining chances he gets.
My notes on Fafita
0:29 Makes an (ineffective) clean out at 3:26
6:33 Joins ruck, then gets offside and is warned by the ref before what would be have rightly been a penalty
7:03 Returns to join a ruck after being the unused man in a 2nd man play
11:00 Helps set up maul 5 out
12:10 Pillar at ruck when they try to exit and he gets offside again so has to return rather than pressure the kicker13:22 Last man to the ruck – very suitcasey and it’s worth mentioning that we went on to make about 40 metres, and the loosie who showed up there first was Paps.
Fifita is joggin up and finally catches up with the play at 13:35 to be the last man to a ruck (again) as it gets moved wide again14:00 Makes a cleanout after Hemopo’s break (and Whitelock is held back)
16:25 Joins ruck as Mo’unga catches it (serves as pillar)
17:23 Makes cleanout at ruck, then another, and another as we work our way upfield (getting the penalty)
18:27 Wins a LO at the front and we get quick ball
18:36 Arrives at a ruck, then is the supporting player of Ofa on the drive, doing a shit job
21:00 Doesn’t quite knock on the kick off (although it looks like it). We recover and move forward
21:20 Good cleanout after a Coles run
21:58 Attacks the ball but can’t get a turnover
25:30 Is the unused second man and doesn’t get himself in a position to help Wise who gets cut down without support. We turn it over
25:50 Again is early on the jump and has to retreat
26:25 Runs - Make a few metres
31:16 Runs – makes 5 metres?
31:43 Runs and makes 4-5 needed metres to help the exit
32:08 Is jogging back on defense after we turn it over – misses a sitter on Tamura and they score in the next few phases
34:30 Supports the ball carrier. We lose metres
34:45 Good cleanout
36:40 Makes what I think is his first tackle! It’s dominant
40:30 Joins the Japanese maul before they score, then swims around and is under advantage of penalty when they attack and score at the next ruck
41:32 After being a passenger to start the half, he leans on a ruck here after a Barrett return
41:42 Makes about 10 metres on a good blindside run
43:20 Misses a tackle on Leitch
44:03 Joins a ruck as the first man to attack the ball – should probably have been a penalty as he was on his feet
44:27 Leans on a ruck
45:45 Acts as a pillar for a clearance46:31 Makes 6-7 metres on a run after a lineout. Good run but can’t offload
50:00 Tackle (2) after JP quick tap
54:26 Lifter for Whitelock at the lineout
54:51 2 metre run to set up next breakdown
56:10 Ruck lean/cleanout
58:23 Cleanout at ruck after kickoff
58:45 Ineffective ruck clean
61:56 Joins ruck as first man, attacks ball to no effect
64:22 Doesn’t take the kick off and the ball goes out
65:01 Terrible lazy chase and (3rd) missed tackle of returning winger
65:08 Makes a good tackle (3rd)
68:30 Ruck lean
69:05 Non-dominant tackle (4)
71:28 Missed tackle (4th) and looked a bit silly doing it
73:30 Good tackle (5)
74:48 Lifter for Whitelock
76:44 Non-dominant tackle (6)
77:09 Tackle (7)
@rancid-schnitzel said in Japan vs All Blacks:
He clearly isn't a 13 and for whatever farking reason he's not been played in the position that won him Mitre10 Cup player of the year as a 19 year old.
He had multiple starts at 12, 13 & 15 in the 2016 NPC
I think he has potential in the midfield but it's not like he was at 12 all of that season.. or even the majority of that season
@chris-b said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@nepia FABJohnny just never got cut a break!
Because he didn't deserve one. Being a white guy from Christchurch doesn't guarantee an AB spot (despite some evidence to the contrary). 
@no-quarter I'm not missing that he played there at age group, I'm missing seeing naything in his game at present that leads me to believe he is capable of making the transition now.
With the mid-field options for the Hurricanes, I cant see him getting any more than 10 or so minutes here and there, so cant see him even being a realistic option there any time in the next few years.
@mariner4life said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@no-quarter said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@nepia said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@no-quarter said in Japan vs All Blacks:
There's an awful lot of hate on this board for such a young and obviously talented prospect.
I don't think that is true in the slightest - he's just not in great form and getting called on it. The 'hate' directed at him has been no worse than that directed at DMac at various times.
The hate directed at both players has been pretty irrational at times, it's not a competition. Certain posters do seem to take some pleasure in seeing Jordie struggle, with some in this thread even calling for an end to his AB career.
ooh ooh that's me!!
Call it a direct response the ridiculous hype he got early where he wasn't that great, but was made out to be the great white hope.
And i did say "in the short term". Right now he doesn't deserve a test spot, based on his whole body of 2018 work at both levels. I don't think it's an outlandish thing to say. He only plays one position, and at the moment he looks 3rd in line for that spot.
But, as has been repeatedly said on this thread, he's just a baby, and has all the time in the world. He has pretty good instincts, but his skills and decision making need some polish. Plenty of time to work on that, providing he sticks around.
You damn right that was you, you fucking Canesaphobe.
I actually agree with most of that, though I think he was better in Super rugby than people give him credit for; he was a pretty key part of our success for much of the season. Think @Chris-B has it right, young bloke that's played a lot of minutes this year probably needs a bit of a break.
@no-quarter said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@mariner4life said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@no-quarter said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@nepia said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@no-quarter said in Japan vs All Blacks:
There's an awful lot of hate on this board for such a young and obviously talented prospect.
I don't think that is true in the slightest - he's just not in great form and getting called on it. The 'hate' directed at him has been no worse than that directed at DMac at various times.
The hate directed at both players has been pretty irrational at times, it's not a competition. Certain posters do seem to take some pleasure in seeing Jordie struggle, with some in this thread even calling for an end to his AB career.
ooh ooh that's me!!
Call it a direct response the ridiculous hype he got early where he wasn't that great, but was made out to be the great white hope.
And i did say "in the short term". Right now he doesn't deserve a test spot, based on his whole body of 2018 work at both levels. I don't think it's an outlandish thing to say. He only plays one position, and at the moment he looks 3rd in line for that spot.
But, as has been repeatedly said on this thread, he's just a baby, and has all the time in the world. He has pretty good instincts, but his skills and decision making need some polish. Plenty of time to work on that, providing he sticks around.
You damn right that was you, you fucking Canesaphobe.
I actually agree with most of that, though I think he was better in Super rugby than people give him credit for; he was a pretty key part of our success for much of the season. Think @Chris-B has it right, young bloke that's played a lot of minutes this year probably needs a bit of a break.
did he play lots of NPC? because since the Super rugby season he's pretty much been on holiday. Aussies in August, Saffers in September, and then Saturday. Must work fucking hard in training.
@rancid-schnitzel Maybe they are waiting on him to further develop his lanky ass frame before moving him closer to the action. I personally think 12 would be his best position aswell and because the Canes have Laumape there, playing really well I might add, means that he will have to wait until injury strikes. The other option is starting Jordie at 12 and have Laumape reek havoc as an impact sub later on in matches.
@mariner4life said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@no-quarter said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@mariner4life said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@no-quarter said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@nepia said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@no-quarter said in Japan vs All Blacks:
There's an awful lot of hate on this board for such a young and obviously talented prospect.
I don't think that is true in the slightest - he's just not in great form and getting called on it. The 'hate' directed at him has been no worse than that directed at DMac at various times.
The hate directed at both players has been pretty irrational at times, it's not a competition. Certain posters do seem to take some pleasure in seeing Jordie struggle, with some in this thread even calling for an end to his AB career.
ooh ooh that's me!!
Call it a direct response the ridiculous hype he got early where he wasn't that great, but was made out to be the great white hope.
And i did say "in the short term". Right now he doesn't deserve a test spot, based on his whole body of 2018 work at both levels. I don't think it's an outlandish thing to say. He only plays one position, and at the moment he looks 3rd in line for that spot.
But, as has been repeatedly said on this thread, he's just a baby, and has all the time in the world. He has pretty good instincts, but his skills and decision making need some polish. Plenty of time to work on that, providing he sticks around.
You damn right that was you, you fucking Canesaphobe.
I actually agree with most of that, though I think he was better in Super rugby than people give him credit for; he was a pretty key part of our success for much of the season. Think @Chris-B has it right, young bloke that's played a lot of minutes this year probably needs a bit of a break.
did he play lots of NPC? because since the Super rugby season he's pretty much been on holiday. Aussies in August, Saffers in September, and then Saturday. Must work fucking hard in training.
I don't think backs are ever really physically burnt out (depending how they play the game), was talking more mentally. He's had a heap of pressure put on him and his confidence appears to be way down right now.
@gt12 said in Japan vs All Blacks:
I finally got to watch the Japan/AB game. I wrote down some thoughts here:
http://www.thesilverfern.com/2018/11/05/abs-versus-japan-how-was-fifita/
Awesome effort. The last time I can remember a ferner doing on of these it was for Thorne in the lead up to the 2007 RWC - the conclusion was the same... drop him.
@rocky-rockbottom said in Japan vs All Blacks:
Sorry, I've yet to warm to Jordie. The privileged path, surname opening doors
And we all know that if Akira makes the ABs it will only be because of Reiko
@act-crusader said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@rocky-rockbottom said in Japan vs All Blacks:
Sorry, I've yet to warm to Jordie. The privileged path, surname opening doors
And we all know that if Akira makes the ABs it will only be because of Reiko
Come on @ACT-Crusader you are well aware that it is the lack of red on his jersey that is holding Akira back
@crucial said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@act-crusader said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@rocky-rockbottom said in Japan vs All Blacks:
Sorry, I've yet to warm to Jordie. The privileged path, surname opening doors
And we all know that if Akira makes the ABs it will only be because of Reiko
Come on @ACT-Crusader you are well aware that it is the lack of red on his jersey that is holding Akira back
Aukira wouldn't be seen dead in red!
Not much to add.
In backs, I continue to LOVE Mo'unga's taking pill very flat and superb control of short passing. Extra men running off him are given Rolls Royce distribution, which allows them to do maximum damage (also thinking of Frizzell against Argies). SBW on form could do brain damage outside Ritchie, especially if he's receiving fast ball from Nugget.
In forwards, GREAT to have Cole back on wing. Hard to take much away for tighties. In loose, thought Papali'i looked the part and Whitelock (L) very tidy -- apart from that non-block! Turnover effectiveness lifted very noticeably with Hunt (who I though had an excellent cameo) and Evans on.
Hemopo radiated the enthusiasm which was so obviously missing from Fifita.
@gt12 said in Japan vs All Blacks:
I finally got to watch the Japan/AB game. I wrote down some thoughts here:
http://www.thesilverfern.com/2018/11/05/abs-versus-japan-how-was-fifita/
Re this bit:
Fifita was there, and you could say he is unlucky that play didn’t come his way, but perhaps that is the point – he’ll make an impact when others provide him with opportunities. But, Fifita doesn’t seem to seek them out – he’s always two out from the ruck looking for the break– even when we need him doing the hard yards closer in and making strong cleans – and, he just isn’t that guy.
Isn't that where we want him?
It's a change from the tight 6 like Kaino with Read playing wide in the 1-3-3-1.
But with Read now the captain and playing a central role instead of the flank, wouldn't the obvious replacement be that our 6 then goes to the inside right flank? Fifita would seem an idea candidate for that, given his speed, but I do have doubts on his off-loading.
This is me just voicing my thoughts out loud. I've not worked out who plays the right 1 in the 1-3-3-1 since Read bcame captain 3 years ago .... maybe I should watch a replay and work it out ..... , whoever it is has been they haven't been very visible over the last few years. We've seen Squire and Dixon out there (and Fifita v Argentina in New PLymouth).
I think people on here see Kaino as the model, but I don't think out current 6s will 100% play the peak-kaino role due to Read's change of role since taking over the captaincy.
Sorry to hear NMS is injured again
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@crazy-horse said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@tim he could have died!
He did die and aura brought him back to life
@rotated said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@gt12 said in Japan vs All Blacks:
I finally got to watch the Japan/AB game. I wrote down some thoughts here:
http://www.thesilverfern.com/2018/11/05/abs-versus-japan-how-was-fifita/
Awesome effort. The last time I can remember a ferner doing on of these it was for Thorne in the lead up to the 2007 RWC - the conclusion was the same... drop him.
Haha nice try. Yet Henry was clear that Thorne was the only decent 6/lock going around. No one else in the squad was playing that role.
If only Henry didn’t save Thorne, Mauger and Ellis for the semi....
@rapido said in Japan vs All Blacks:
This is me just voicing my thoughts out loud. I've not worked out who plays the right 1 in the 1-3-3-1 since Read bcame captain 3 years ago .... maybe I should watch a replay and work it out ..... , whoever it is has been they haven't been very visible over the last few years. We've seen Squire and Dixon out there (and Fifita v Argentina in New PLymouth).
It's been Taylor hasn't it?
@pakman said in Japan vs All Blacks:
Not much to add.
In backs, I continue to LOVE Mo'unga's taking pill very flat and superb control of short passing. Extra men running off him are given Rolls Royce distribution, which allows them to do maximum damage (also thinking of Frizzell against Argies). SBW on form could do brain damage outside Ritchie, especially if he's receiving fast ball from Nugget.
In forwards, GREAT to have Cole back on wing. Hard to take much away for tighties. In loose, thought Papali'i looked the part and Whitelock (L) very tidy -- apart from that non-block! Turnover effectiveness lifted very noticeably with Hunt (who I though had an excellent cameo) and Evans on.
Hemopo radiated the enthusiasm which was so obviously missing from Fifita.
Mo'unga threw a few passes to the back shoulder which stunted a couple of our attacks, but i agree, they way he attacks should play in to the hands of our midfield more.
@act-crusader said in Japan vs All Blacks:
Yet Henry was clear that Thorne was the only decent 6/lock going around.
Quite the opposite. He was literally in a heads up battle that year against Flavell for the spot that season. Thorne edged according to Henry in part because a 6/lock was preferred to a lock/6 for squad balance as they already have four locks.
Anyway the initial post got picked up on Radio Sport and everything I want to say it was a Mr Mike contribution, but can't be sure - was a long time ago.
Were we running a 1-3-3-1 or a 2-4-2? Half the time I can't tell, to be honest, and for most of the game they only seemed to set a pod of three or four in the middle to attack through and behind. As we'd probably imagine, they didn't look as organized as the full team.
I think the strategy was to have him in that inside right hand place, but just being a metre gainer shouldn't be enough, totally apart from the fact that he's not really a good offloader or short passer, ala Taufua who does that role really well for the Crusaders (another who I probably should have mentioned in my write up).
Anyway, the point I was trying to make (poorly) is that there is a tactical element to playing at the highest level that he doesn't seem to have - so he's in the position he's strategically assigned, but from reading the game he should see that he's likely to be needed as a cleaner, but he's nowhere to be seen as we get turned over. I remember one example from the game where he was closest but didn't try to get there and we conceded a penalty. Many other times, Fifita was often the last guy there when he wasn't needed. Overall, I felt like the other loosies (and Hemopo) did a better job of making decisions about when to get involved and when not to - and when they did get involved they made bigger impacts.
@rotated said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@act-crusader said in Japan vs All Blacks:
Yet Henry was clear that Thorne was the only decent 6/lock going around.
Quite the opposite. He was literally in a heads up battle that year against Flavell for the spot that season. Thorne edged according to Henry in part because a 6/lock was preferred to a lock/6 for squad balance as they already have four locks.
Anyway the initial post got picked up on Radio Sport and everything I want to say it was a Mr Mike contribution, but can't be sure - was a long time ago.
It was. Darcy mentioned it. But I thought the conclusion was Thorne actually did some stuff.
@crucial said in Japan vs All Blacks:
@rapido said in Japan vs All Blacks:
This is me just voicing my thoughts out loud. I've not worked out who plays the right 1 in the 1-3-3-1 since Read bcame captain 3 years ago .... maybe I should watch a replay and work it out ..... , whoever it is has been they haven't been very visible over the last few years. We've seen Squire and Dixon out there (and Fifita v Argentina in New PLymouth).
It's been Taylor hasn't it?
Taylor has taken over Coles role. usually left, but sometimes right.
It's not particularly clear to me who, if anyone, has taken over Read's role. I assume it has been our 6 (Squire, Dixon, Fifita), but I've never seen Frizzell out wide. Or have we played a different formation.
Unless the ball heads that way in live play, it's not easy to see on TV. Need a stadium view or be anorak enough to go back and watch for it in a replay.
@booboo said in Japan vs All Blacks:
It was. Darcy mentioned it. But I thought the conclusion was Thorne actually did some stuff.
Packed down in the right place at the scrum, jersey was on the right way, got all the words to the anthem right (English part anyway)...