Thoughts on the RWC Final
So I have watched the game twice over weekend and will probably do watch it again before the week is over, and I wholeheartedly agree with @Billy-Webb above.
Just a couple of thoughts:
- The body language coming out of the tunnel was weird, some guys looked super geed up (Kolisi and Beast especially) while others had that 1000 yard stare. I was really worried the moment might be too great for some of these guys.
The early penalty against Lawes really helped. It was just such a blatant penalty that I think it helped Garces get over whatever nerves he might have had. Even though Pollard missed a kickable penalty, I think it helped the game that Garces could settle in to the game and we were able to avoid the referee freezing up like we have seen in other big games.
The play around Sinkler's injury was huge. It started with the first up and under being defused (big concern before the game) and then South Africa making two or three passes in the middle third of the pitch (something the team didn't do in games leading up to the final). Finally the break after two minutes settled some of the nerves I thought.
There was period in the middle of the first half where things could have gone very wrong for the team. It started with a missed kick to touch (which on replay was a dud call); our maul was disrupted by Cole thanks to very wide gate (twice I think); two tight forwards went down injured with the ref allowing play to continue very close Mbonambi while he was receiving treatment; and finally England smashing away for twenty odd phases.
With the game tied up at 6 all, I was having flashbacks to Twickenham 2018, Wellington 2019 and the pool game against New Zealand where South Africa dominated early doors but didn't convert domination into points.
- THE moment of the game for me. SA goes up 9-6 off the back of our dominant scrum. Its three minutes to half time and England kicks deep from the kick off. South Africa recycles the ball a couple of time and get ready to box kick to close out the first half in England's half of the pitch. Luckily the ball comes out awkwardly and Faf shifts it out to the centres where Am makes a neat break, but runs out of support and chips, putting Daly under pressure. Daly knocks on, scrum penalty.
All of a sudden England are chasing the game. Even if they get a 7 pointer, we are still within penalty goal of retaking the lead.
In the third quarter nothing happens and this suits South Africa just fine. Pollard and Farrel trade penalties with the lead staying between 6 and 9 points. England are starting to try a couple more things but are just eaten up by fantastically organised defense and PSDT winning himself a world player of the year in the process.
In the final quarter England start feeling the pressure. The scoreboard suggests that they are still in the game at 12 points to 18 but it is slipping away from them. The scrum has settled down, but you just can't see England scoring a try to break it open and South Africa is starting to enjoy territorial dominance. Little cracks start to show in the English defense until Mapimpi and Am link up to score.
From there England start pushing even harder, but they are going nowhere and when Kolbe goes over from turnover to seal the game.
The game could easily have ended in blow out at this stage, with at least one more try nearly slipping through on Mapimpi's wing from cross kick taking an awful bounce.
- I really wish they would do away with the silver medal ceremony. The guys clearly don't want to be there and they are on hiding to nothing. I am sure that in a couple of years the English players will reflect fondly on the tournament they had, but minutes after the final whistle is not the time for that.
It is completely understandable that they would just want go to the locker room and reflect in private on what must be a very disappointing night for them.
@Machpants said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Cory Jane was a great player, but he does talk a lot of crap. Not exactly a don't of wisdom, esp if you read his book!
I like Cory , but his on field IQ is much better than his off field IQ
@MiketheSnow is there generally a big discrepancy in scrummaging ability between Sinckler and Cole? It was a shame that we didn't get to see any scrums before he left the field to see what impact his departure made.
@Observer77 said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow is there generally a big discrepancy in scrummaging ability between Sinckler and Cole? It was a shame that we didn't get to see any scrums before he left the field to see what impact his departure made.
Another poster (was it @NTA ?) had it right in pointing the finger at Itoje. If anyone played their final early it was him. The scrum problems seemed to occur on his side with the sealing evidence when he changed over.
England's scrum wasn't dominant against us. They had some good moments but the Bokke unit were really up for it, they would have troubled us as well (especially when the reserves came on)
Second row is the engine. Front row is the steering. Yes, props and hookers also push but they simultaneously have to direct the force, using their spine to channel it.
The good thing about the blood roaring in your ears during high pressure scrums: your can't hear your vertebrate creaking, or yourself whimpering ?
@NTA said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Second row is the engine. Front row is the steering. Yes, props and hookers also push but they simultaneously have to direct the force, using their spine to channel it.
The good thing about the blood roaring in your ears during high pressure scrums: your can't hear your vertebrate creaking, or yourself whimpering ?
Come on. At least you have your guts dragging on the ground as support 
@Crucial said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@NTA said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Second row is the engine. Front row is the steering. Yes, props and hookers also push but they simultaneously have to direct the force, using their spine to channel it.
The good thing about the blood roaring in your ears during high pressure scrums: your can't hear your vertebrate creaking, or yourself whimpering ?
Come on. At least you have your guts dragging on the ground as support
My gut is the only thing keeping my shoulders above knee level. That's why it is called "prop"
So I'm finally ready to post some thoughts on this game.
To start, my commiserations to the England guys on TSF. Right now it won't feel fantastic, but you can be proud of your team's performance over the course of this RWC. You played some excellent rugby and were deserved finalists.
But as opposed to SA's semi against Wales where the Boks played not to lose, in the final England ran into a Bok team that actually played to win. In addition to the usual forward grunt, box kicks and swarming defence, the Boks decided to also run at the English. This, together with early good field position, the loss of Sinckler, the Bok scrum dominance and then the first 3 points, I think put the English on the back foot. And they never really recovered.
It was without a doubt the best game the Boks played the whole tournament. Hard, uncompromising, disciplined and smart. I couldn't be more proud of them. This feels at least as good as 1995. Maybe even better because there were no Luyt-like dickhead statements afterwards from SA officials - at least none that I have seen
Rassie, sly as they come. His 20 game plan, like watching an Oceans movie unfolding, plan within a plan within a plan - with a slight of hand - just in case. He had everyone fooled. Hindsight being 20/20 etc, I don't think anyone but the ABs at their best really stood a chance on the particular day, and even then I would not have called it anything else than a 50:50. I feel for England, but they really just happened to be the ones happily qualifying for the final only to run into the wall. In that mood, you would need at least another apposing Bok team just to slow the runaway train. Kudos on England for hanging in as long as they did. Billy summarized it well. Imho, it was the best game the Boks has played since the early Mallet days, and their best WC final by some margin.
@SidBarret Fantastic post.
For me, it was at the 60 minute mark where I truly believed we had this. The score was only 18-12 but it just felt like England had run out of answers. The Mapimipi try a bit later sealed it. Too much for England to do from there, and the Boks sensed it and grew yet another arm and leg.
It was our day. Bounce of the ball and all that.
Even Willie saved his best for this game 
@Observer77 said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow is there generally a big discrepancy in scrummaging ability between Sinckler and Cole? It was a shame that we didn't get to see any scrums before he left the field to see what impact his departure made.
By all accounts yes. That's one of the reasons Sinckler is starting and not finishing.
And Cole hasn't played a full match for ages.
Was always going to end badly.
@Billy-Webb Thanks Billy, nice to have you home 
Re Willie - I originally thought he was good, but on rewatching the game, not so much. He was fine (if a little untested) at the back. On attack though there were three or four attacking moves that broke down with Willie running across field and/or then failing to link up with his support.
On the subject of individual performance though, nobody was terrible, but some players deserve a special shout out I feel. -
Am was magnificent, with only a early drop while we had an overlap developing down the left being his only mistake. Other than that he was Conrad Smith'esque in how lead the defense out wide organised the attach.
Mapimpi was identified by a number of journalist during the week as weakness in the Springboks defense, especially in the air, but he was faultless in defense and won three (if you count Watson penalty) turnovers from up and unders.
I was vocal in my criticism of Malherbe over the last two years and would not have selected him to the squad, but he was great. He destroyed Vunipola in the scrums and was an integral part of that defensive performance.
@SidBarret
You can definitely add in Cheslin Kolbe to the call-outs.
Apart from the magic of the try at the end, what stood out for me was his defence - outrageously good. @NTA calls it out higher up in this thread. He took down guys much bigger than him with ease and once or twice was instrumental in nullifying England overlaps.
And I thought Duane was a good choice for MOTM. That guy is just a rock for us.
But Pollard could easily have been a contender too... and Faf.
@Billy-Webb Yeah, all the guys had good games, and in terms of MOTM accolades PSDT (and to lesser extent Mostert) could have been nominations based on their defensive shifts.
I chose to focus on those three in particular because I they were maligned (even if only by myself in the case of Malherbe) in the build up and did fantastically well to exceed all expectations when it really counted.
@Billy-Webb @SidBarret good morning World Champions. You guys pretty much summed it up.
I felt comfortable after Pollard took his own early up and under. Then I knew we were there to play.
But I thought we won it with the two penalties either side of half time.
The first came from Am’s neat break. I was sure the boks would realize they could run at England if they needed to, after that.
And then, 4 minutes after half time Rassie made an inspired double prop substitution searching for the penalty. That penalty took as 2 scores clear and the game was, for all intents and purposes, won.
I’m surprised more people haven’t highlighted the tactical significance of that substitution. That was genius.
And going back to Am, he was magnificent. We now take his ironclad defence for granted, but he added an attacking edge on Saturday.
Lastly, strange to think that Steyn beat a father and son in order to collect his two RWC winner’s medals.
Congratulations Bokke, great tournament. Really enjoyed it despite the ABs failing to turn up last week. Better team won the final, really entertaining game.
This modern trend of super mobile ball running props makes it easy to forget how absolutely important scrums are. You are screwed in a tight game if your scrum gets hammered: any dropped ball = you get ball back or a penalty, any penalty within 50m = chance for points. Same principle for the trend of selecting smaller locks who are brilliant in the loose (Itoje @ 1.95m) and two 7s - you are giving up second row power, and it matters.
This is why I love rugby, so many different ways to win and tactical ways to outmatch the other team. Kolbe is one of the smallest players in the World Cup and one of the best. It's a game for all shapes and sizes.
My favourite moment was Am recovering Mapimipi's kick then throwing a no-look pass back to him, then not even looking at him dot it down. Ice cold.
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Congratulations Bokke, great tournament. Really enjoyed it despite the ABs failing to turn up last week. Better team won the final, really entertaining game.
This modern trend of this trend of super mobile ball running props makes it easy to forget how absolutely important scrums are. You are screwed in a tight game if your scrum gets hammered: any dropped ball = youget ball back or a penalty, any penalty within 50m = chance for points. Same principle for the trend of selecting smaller locks who are brilliant in the loose (Itoje @ 1.95m) and two 7s - you are giving up second row power and it matters.
This is why I love rugby, so many different ways to win and tactical ways to outmatch the other team. Kolbe is one of the smallest players in the World Cup and one of the best. It's a game for all shapes and sizes.
My favourite moment was Am recovering Mapimipi's kick then throwing a no-look pass back to him, then not even looking at him dot it down. Ice cold.
And getting denied on the hi-5
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
This modern trend of this trend of super mobile ball running props makes it easy to forget how absolutely important scrums are. You are screwed in a tight game if your scrum gets hammered: any dropped ball = youget ball back or a penalty, any penalty within 50m = chance for points. Same principle for the trend of selecting smaller locks who are brilliant in the loose (Itoje @ 1.95m) and two 7s - you are giving up second row power and it matters.
I get your point and respect it, but you also need to realise how good this tight five (ten, or is that eleven if you count PSDT) of South Africa is.
Beast might lack the subtly of Sinckler or the ball carrying of Vunipolu the fatter, but he is busy around the park clearing out and tackling hard. Marx, Kitshoff and (especially) Snyman are super slick ball in hand. Mostert is a lock sized human being (don't be fooled by how he looks next to his locking partners) with an engine like nobody's business.
Tribute to these guys for working their game to get it where it is. Beast started out as a blindside, yet today he is capable of winning a world cup final off the back of his scrummaging. Kitshoff started out as bit of pot plant prop, but his ball handling and carrying is truly world class.
One of the things in the build up that annoyed me was how often the British scribes pulled out the old cliches - South Africa is big/slow, will tire, lack skills, etc. It just seemed lazy and short sighted to base all the analysis on what was admittedly a poor performance against Wales.
***This post is not meant to deify the springbok team. They did/do have weaknesses - Marx and Mbonambi are prone to yips in the line-out. Beast and Etsebeth, despite the power and speed, are not great ball carriers. Du Toit's running game seems to have disappeared just as his defensive game has become the best in the world, etc etc.
@SidBarret said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
This modern trend of this trend of super mobile ball running props makes it easy to forget how absolutely important scrums are. You are screwed in a tight game if your scrum gets hammered: any dropped ball = youget ball back or a penalty, any penalty within 50m = chance for points. Same principle for the trend of selecting smaller locks who are brilliant in the loose (Itoje @ 1.95m) and two 7s - you are giving up second row power and it matters.
One of the things in the build up that annoyed me was how often the British scribes pulled out the old cliches - South Africa is big/slow, will tire, lack skills, etc. It just seemed lazy and short sighted to base all the analysis on what was admittedly a poor performance against Wales.
Tired cliches and overrating their team/underrating the opponent based on one game is the foundation of a lot of rugby journalism.
If there is a silver lining to our loss it might be giving them a false sense of their superiority that hurt their performance. If you were to read a lot of analysis prior, they were better man for man and only had to turn up.
@Smuts said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
And then, 4 minutes after half time Rassie made an inspired double prop substitution searching for the penalty. That penalty took as 2 scores clear and the game was, for all intents and purposes, won.
I’m surprised more people haven’t highlighted the tactical significance of that substitution. That was genius.
Thanks mate
I am kinda whispering this - but had we lost I think that substitution would have been questioned a lot more.
Beast and Malherbe were well on top and leaving them another 10 minutes (they just had a fifteen minute sitdown) seemed to be more sensible to leave even fresher legs for the last ten minutes of the game.
That first scrum is also questioned by some on the basis that the english loosehead moved forward (while to my eyes at least their tighthead buckled in under presssure).
@SidBarret Yeah somehow after that scrum, we lost dominance. No doubt we'll get a thorough analysis of the scrum battle in due course.
My point is specifically that Rassie made those substitutions to milk that penalty. And without the benefit of hindsight, at that stage, you would have backed Kitshoff and Koch to dial the pressure up rather than how it played out. I liked it at the time and still do, even though the Poms managed to craft an edge at the scrum afterward.
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And he is saying the right things - both to us South African supporters and the Englishmen at home. Good for him. I get the argument that "that under pressure the true you comes out" etc, but fuck it. As a springbok fan I don't need him to kneel down and kiss the ring.
He might act like a cock, but if it doesn't actually affect the game I am good fine with it. Don't want him to celebrate, don't give him a reason to.
@Billy-Webb said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
So I'm finally ready to post some thoughts on this game.
To start, my commiserations to the England guys on TSF. Right now it won't feel fantastic, but you can be proud of your team's performance over the course of this RWC. You played some excellent rugby and were deserved finalists.
But as opposed to SA's semi against Wales where the Boks played not to lose, in the final England ran into a Bok team that actually played to win. In addition to the usual forward grunt, box kicks and swarming defence, the Boks decided to also run at the English. This, together with early good field position, the loss of Sinckler, the Bok scrum dominance and then the first 3 points, I think put the English on the back foot. And they never really recovered.
It was without a doubt the best game the Boks played the whole tournament. Hard, uncompromising, disciplined and smart. I couldn't be more proud of them. This feels at least as good as 1995. Maybe even better because there were no Luyt-like dickhead statements afterwards from SA officials - at least none that I have seen
Not on their watch, so to speak...
@jegga said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Is Gavin Rich respected
I just read the article and the answer to your question is, no, not by me.
Comments like these:
"The Boks, with that magnificent pack, never looked like being outplayed."
and yet they lost a match...(he is referring to the whole tournament there)
but apparently due to this v the ABs:
"it was really only some dubious refereeing"
Twat.
@Snowy said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@jegga said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Is Gavin Rich respected
I just read the article and the answer to your question is, no, not by me.
Comments like these:
"The Boks, with that magnificent pack, never looked like being outplayed."and yet they lost a match...(he is referring to the whole tournament there)
but apparently due to this v the ABs:
"it was really only some dubious refereeing"Twat.
Yeah he struck me as being a bit of a cock with some of the thrashwanking about the pool game . Bizarrely he actually admitted the boks weren’t the best team in 2007 and 1995 .
@booboo said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Meh. We'll never know.
Boks didn't play the All Blacks.
We do know Gav is a bit of a dick though .
I don't mind most of that article - the headline is a bit misleading. The bit that seems weird to me is this bit:
"The All Blacks knew that too, and perhaps that set them on the path to their calamitous semifinal no-show against England. Their coach Steve Hansen had said during the week that the All Blacks' main threat was the Boks. It was the line being peddled by the Kiwi media. It was the wrong thing to say and the wrong thing to think."
The only thing I heard Hansen saying was you've got to play well this week and if you play well enough to win you earn the right to play the following week. And if you don't you go home. Looking ahead to the Boks being the biggest threat would have been completely the opposite to anything I heard him saying (and I'm sure would have been widely reported in NZ media). I daresay there were some media people who thought the Boks would be the biggest threat. There were a lot more who thought we'd meet them in the final if we got there. Which would've been true.
@booboo said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Meh. We'll never know.
Boks didn't play the All Blacks.
Yes they did, All Blacks won.
@Machpants said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Meh. We'll never know.
Boks didn't play the All Blacks.
Yes they did, All Blacks won.
Oh poor naive @Machpants , it was down to the ref . The boks were clearly the better team
@jegga said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@Machpants said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Meh. We'll never know.
Boks didn't play the All Blacks.
Yes they did, All Blacks won.
Oh poor naive @Machpants , it was down to the ref . The boks were clearly the better team
Correct. But we still won, evvn if it was a World Rugby fix!
@Machpants said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@jegga said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@Machpants said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
@booboo said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Meh. We'll never know.
Boks didn't play the All Blacks.
Yes they did, All Blacks won.
Oh poor naive @Machpants , it was down to the ref . The boks were clearly the better team
Correct. But we still won, evvn if it was a World Rugby fix!
If fucking Jaco Peyper had just gone back to his hotel....
@jegga said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Is Gavin Rich respected or the South African Stephen Jones?
Ugh.
It's this sort of revisionist, clever after the fact crap I was really hoping we wouldn't see.
Stick with Rassie's post match press conference. We prepared well, we played well, but we also had our slice of luck.
While it is amazing to have won the title, the top 4 or 5 teams were all pretty close.
We could so easily have been playing for bronze and Wales competing for the title...
@Billy-Webb said in RWC Final: England v Springboks:
Ugh.
It's this sort of revisionist, clever after the fact crap I was really hoping we wouldn't see.Stick with Rassie's post match press conference. We prepared well, we played well, but we also had our slice of luck.
While it is amazing to have won the title, the top 4 or 5 teams were all pretty close.
We could so easily have been playing for bronze and Wales competing for the title...
Don't stress. The headline is worse than the article, which one line aside, is a fairly balanced and decent one.
Twitter aside, the SA reaction to winning has been rather impressive and softened my stance of supporting England.