All Blacks v Ireland
Ireland were very good today and deserved their win. No complaints.
The ABs were poor and made to look very ordinary by a committed Ireland side who wanted to put us under pressure from the get go.
The AB’s are the best side in the world until they come up against a team that wants to tackle and pressure us. This had shades of the 2019 semi against England.
I have said for some time that NZ rugby are not producing the right kind of players for test rugby that can be successful in RWCs and against the very top sides. Ireland in the autumn is definitely one of those.
A lot has been made of the ABs wanting to play unstructured rugby. We are good at it. However, we either don't understand how or can’t break down a side through our own structured rugby first, to enable us to get in a position where we force them into unstructured game scenarios - pressure them into turnovers, dropped balls, poor kicks etc.
Ireland are one of the most structured sides in the game and it showed throughout the match. They enjoyed a huge amount of possession in the first half and we hade to make over 140 tackles. In one half. That required defensive effort will always come back to hurt you later in the game.
At halftime we must have talked at length about holding on to the ball, having possession to play our game that allows territory and then opportunities will follow. We kicked the ball away 3 times in the first 3 minutes and Ireland duly scored. It’s not smart rugby.
We had a huge amount of dropped passes and threw the ball into touch a few times today. Lots of those dropped balls were unforced errors tbh and we looked a panicked side trying to attack against a composed and organised Irish defence. We couldn't impose ourselves enough to force Ireland into making errors or breaking up up their defensive organisation.
Perhaps the 16 week quarantine bubble tour has finally affected the squad and the performance of the team. We saw that with SA in the RC when they lost games they perhaps shouldn’t have.
The biggest frustration is we have known for 4 years we struggle when confronted with a side like this. For all the gains we have made this year, we haven’t addressed this massive problem at all and we looked as poor as we did that night against England in the RWC loss.
Do we have the players to turn this around? Is super rugby aotearoa and trans Tasman rugby good enough preparation for how todays test rugby is played? Is it a surprise when the assistant coach who was part of the team that oversaw the decline of AB rugby over the last 3 years and the semi loss against England, is now the head coach and showing the same weaknesses in how his side performs?
Congrats to Ireland. Well played. Lots of work to do for the all black squad over the next couple of years.
@machpants
Sad that they accept and embrace mediocrity but you are probably right.
They will probably count a semi final RWC defeat as a success.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
My concern is that Robertson won't make that much difference and we've effectively shared the headless-chicken stuff from the field to the coaches office.
Something has gone badly wrong in the last 4 years. The only good thing to come from this game is it might make people sit up and ask some hard questions - players, coaches and NZRFU management
I suspect it runs a bit deeper than just the coach (but in saying that I’m not saying fozzie is the best man for the job .)
Blowing teams off the park with razzle dazzle isn’t as easy as it was and I think it’s largely due to the improvement in the opposition dealing with what we tend to do well .
The nh sides now look far more than well rounded than they used to, and we can look a bit like one trick poneys in our approach to the game
that goes back to coaching (and I guess, captains).
You are right , but I guess I’m saying it’s how we tend to approach the game at the lower levels and it’s become ingrained , so I’m wondering if it runs deeper
But if anyone coaches at super rugby level that resembles test match rugby the most , it’s Robertson . I think we missed a trick in not appointing him in the first place , but confused if swapping him now , is best for the team or him with only 2 years before the wc . If it doesn’t work , does he get thrown on the scrap heap as well?
Not sure if it’s that simple a fix is my concern.
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@machpants
Sad that they accept and embrace mediocrity but you are probably right.They will probably count a semi final RWC defeat as a success.
Great learnings
@mn5 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Geez, to think we can’t even blame this one on Bridge
his fault, when he is not there the ABs fail as they rely so much on his pace, power, and linebreaking. And he doesn't pass as badly as Reece did.
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
My concern is that Robertson won't make that much difference and we've effectively shared the headless-chicken stuff from the field to the coaches office.
Something has gone badly wrong in the last 4 years. The only good thing to come from this game is it might make people sit up and ask some hard questions - players, coaches and NZRFU management
I suspect it runs a bit deeper than just the coach (but in saying that I’m not saying fozzie is the best man for the job .)
Blowing teams off the park with razzle dazzle isn’t as easy as it was and I think it’s largely due to the improvement in the opposition dealing with what we tend to do well .
The nh sides now look far more than well rounded than they used to, and we can look a bit like one trick poneys in our approach to the game
that goes back to coaching (and I guess, captains).
You are right , but I guess I’m saying it’s how we tend to approach the game at the lower levels and it’s become ingrained , so I’m wondering if it runs deeper
But if anyone coaches at super rugby level that resembles test match rugby the most , it’s Robertson . I think we missed a trick in not appointing him in the first place , but confused if swapping him now , is best for the team or him with only 2 years before the wc . If it doesn’t work , does he get thrown on the scrap heap as well?
Not sure if it’s that simple a fix is my concern.
Give him 4 years, from next year, that'd be fine. Whatever he manages to achieve for 23 will be better than anything foster can do. He'll talk and talk, but not come up with anything at all to change the way the ABs play
@machpants said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I pray to god we get humiliated by France if Foster was guaranteed to leave.
Are we guaranteed success with the next coach? No.
Is Foster an imposter? Yes.
He'd have to lose to a tier 2 side before NZR changed their tune.
Twice.
In a row.
By large margins
Yep. Foster has been a plodding coach for two decades, but somehow his journey of averageness has always been one way up the NZRU ladder...
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
My concern is that Robertson won't make that much difference and we've effectively shared the headless-chicken stuff from the field to the coaches office.
Something has gone badly wrong in the last 4 years. The only good thing to come from this game is it might make people sit up and ask some hard questions - players, coaches and NZRFU management
I suspect it runs a bit deeper than just the coach (but in saying that I’m not saying fozzie is the best man for the job .)
Blowing teams off the park with razzle dazzle isn’t as easy as it was and I think it’s largely due to the improvement in the opposition dealing with what we tend to do well .
The nh sides now look far more than well rounded than they used to, and we can look a bit like one trick poneys in our approach to the game
that goes back to coaching (and I guess, captains).
You are right , but I guess I’m saying it’s how we tend to approach the game at the lower levels and it’s become ingrained , so I’m wondering if it runs deeper
But if anyone coaches at super rugby level that resembles test match rugby the most , it’s Robertson . I think we missed a trick in not appointing him in the first place , but confused if swapping him now , is best for the team or him with only 2 years before the wc . If it doesn’t work , does he get thrown on the scrap heap as well?
Not sure if it’s that simple a fix is my concern.
2 years is enough, he knows key players and he was pretty good in his first year as Crusaders coach, if I recall rightly. Plus I don't think he would make huge changes at a selection level.
Whoever is coach, the combinations really need to improve. I think the players are good enough, in the main.
And I don't think he would do things like play Jordie at wing.
@donsteppa said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
somehow his journey of averageness has always been one way up the NZRU ladder...
Change the ladder, too.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
My concern is that Robertson won't make that much difference and we've effectively shared the headless-chicken stuff from the field to the coaches office.
Something has gone badly wrong in the last 4 years. The only good thing to come from this game is it might make people sit up and ask some hard questions - players, coaches and NZRFU management
I suspect it runs a bit deeper than just the coach (but in saying that I’m not saying fozzie is the best man for the job .)
Blowing teams off the park with razzle dazzle isn’t as easy as it was and I think it’s largely due to the improvement in the opposition dealing with what we tend to do well .
The nh sides now look far more than well rounded than they used to, and we can look a bit like one trick poneys in our approach to the game
that goes back to coaching (and I guess, captains).
You are right , but I guess I’m saying it’s how we tend to approach the game at the lower levels and it’s become ingrained , so I’m wondering if it runs deeper
But if anyone coaches at super rugby level that resembles test match rugby the most , it’s Robertson . I think we missed a trick in not appointing him in the first place , but confused if swapping him now , is best for the team or him with only 2 years before the wc . If it doesn’t work , does he get thrown on the scrap heap as well?
Not sure if it’s that simple a fix is my concern.
2 years is enough, he knows key players and he was pretty good in his first year as Crusaders coach, if I recall rightly. Plus I don't think he would make huge changes at a selection level.
Whoever is coach, the combinations really need to improve. I think the players are good enough, in the main.
And I don't think he would do things like play Jordie at wing.
Erasmus did it with SA
It will only change when it is properly burnt down to the ground.
Its a sad state of affairs when their is high calibre Nz coaches in such demand across the world and spurn them all for Fozzie who would struggle to be in the top 10 NZ coaches.
If he walked away from the ABs after RWC 19, how many countries would have been in for him? He may have ended up coaching in Italy or a Welsh region perhaps?
@dagrubster didn't Henry choose him over Razor as part of the selection panel?
@junior said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Reiko you cock.
It was a stupid pass from Havili - why throw the big loopy one instead of the short one to the support runners
My TV got screamed at when he did that. No vision or going for a glory pass? Those support runners were running at a hole.
@dagrubster do you think Ireland would have beaten Boks with that performance?
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
When was the last time we lost back to back matches...cos that is on the cards.
Erased last year from memory?
@tordah oh were they back to back...been too many losses the last few years, gone are the days I can recall each loss with painful clarity...4 losses in 2 years, a 5th on the cards....
@dagrubster so why the gnashing of teeth?.You guys were spoiled with McCaw et al. Hint, that era wasn't normal. This is ?
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
My concern is that Robertson won't make that much difference and we've effectively shared the headless-chicken stuff from the field to the coaches office.
Something has gone badly wrong in the last 4 years. The only good thing to come from this game is it might make people sit up and ask some hard questions - players, coaches and NZRFU management
I suspect it runs a bit deeper than just the coach (but in saying that I’m not saying fozzie is the best man for the job .)
Blowing teams off the park with razzle dazzle isn’t as easy as it was and I think it’s largely due to the improvement in the opposition dealing with what we tend to do well .
The nh sides now look far more than well rounded than they used to, and we can look a bit like one trick poneys in our approach to the game
that goes back to coaching (and I guess, captains).
You are right , but I guess I’m saying it’s how we tend to approach the game at the lower levels and it’s become ingrained , so I’m wondering if it runs deeper
But if anyone coaches at super rugby level that resembles test match rugby the most , it’s Robertson . I think we missed a trick in not appointing him in the first place , but confused if swapping him now , is best for the team or him with only 2 years before the wc . If it doesn’t work , does he get thrown on the scrap heap as well?
Not sure if it’s that simple a fix is my concern.
2 years is enough, he knows key players and he was pretty good in his first year as Crusaders coach, if I recall rightly. Plus I don't think he would make huge changes at a selection level.
Whoever is coach, the combinations really need to improve. I think the players are good enough, in the main.
And I don't think he would do things like play Jordie at wing.
What key players does he know? RM, DH, Reece, Jordan...
He's been working on those guys for years and they still make poor decisions and can't play their games under pressure.
RM and DH were absolutely appalling in their decisions and control today. I can forgive DH a little as he is new to the position but RM is supposedly the hard done by 10 option when he doesn't start. Offered nothing to the ABs today and plenty to Ireland. Did the same in the RWC Semi and hasn't progressed. Looks a million when things are going easy for the team (like in Super)
I don’t know then.
Fozzie has been better than I thought he would be tbh. But we haven’t improved at all against teams that play like Ireland did today or England did in ‘19. It has been a problem since the Lions exposed some of these weaknesses in 2017.
Whether it’s our gameplan, player quality, coaching issue, the world catching up to the ABs with all of the IP we have provided the rest of the world through the player and coach drain, domestic competition and pathway to test rugby I’m not sure. It’s probably a combination of all of them.
It’s not normal. The McCaw era was awesome but the ABs were awesome fo a very long time before he was even born.
I don’t mind being beaten by a better side. Which is what happened today. But it’s the manner of the defeat that shows we aren’t learning or progressing or maybe even able to change this type of defeat from happening.
Just on the reffing, I flagged a month or so ago that we may come across one of these Premiership ref teams that run the game with an extra ref in the box. It's not a style we are used to and I thought it would cause consternation.
I know the players were constantly chipping at him but the refs set the precedent early on by reviewing something very debatable and searching forever to justify a position. No wonder the players kept asking for reviews.
As a style of reffing, it does cause that problem as we know fault can be found in almost every situation so if you are going to search freeze frames for fault in some cases why not others?
Does it make for more accurate decisions? A little. Does it make the game less of an effect on tiring players? Absolutely. All that defending and we were being given long breathers all the time.
The way the NZR conducted the interview process meant that hardly any Nz coach ran for it apart from Fozzie and Robertson who was an NZR employee and available.
One of the most prestigious jobs in world rugby and they are advertising it in the papers. Joke process and it was an open secret that Foster had the job. Most coaches had to secure the next contract way before the interviews took place.
@dagrubster 5 years since first being exposed by a good rush defence and still can't deal with it
@taniwharugby only one way to deal with a rush defence. ABs did it in first Lions test in 2017. And never again.
@dagrubster said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
The way the NZR conducted the interview process meant that hardly any Nz coach ran for it apart from Fozzie and Robertson who was an NZR employee and available.
and the coaching groups were weak. if my memory is correct jason holland was in robertsons team?.
as i said before brad mooar needs to go dont know who we can get but our attack is non existent. if that is the best he can come up with to brake dow the irish we are in trouble.
Can anyone be surprised at this result? We don't get enough from our props and our loose forwards don't combine enough with the tight five to go narrow and draw defenders in.
You simply can't play rugby at this level without the ball. A game plan that revolves around 50:50 kicks in your own half is just fucking stupid. Get into their half, secure possession, break down their defence.
We also seem enamoured with players who look great playing on dry tracks in summer. It's a long tour but Havili has gone backwards to the point he should already be occupying a space in MIQ. TJP manages to come back from Japan straight into the team and is terrible. Unsurprisingly. NZ just isn't adequately developing players at the SR level.
@stodders and looked likely in the 2nd until SBW...since then though
@dagrubster said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Yes, his coaching group wasn’t as strong. Tony brown pulling out late hurt him there
Brown was approached by Foster too but he was loyal to Joseph.
The big problem is that there aren't too many other options.
The cupboard is bare at prop, lock (BBBR and SW now look old), halfback (behind Smith), 1st and 2nd Five.
Centre is better with Goodhue and PUJ as possible options.
LHP : Hodgman. Not better than the current ones.
THP : Cupboard totally bare.
Lock : S. Barrett and Tuipolutu ?
Halfback : Fakatava and Ratima maybe
1st Five : Ioane, Hunt ? Inferior to BB and RM IMO
2nd Five : PUJ, Nankivell, TUJ ?
