Does Rugby have a Superstar?
And if so, who is it?
This is a philosophical discussion about rugby more than anything. More astoundingly it's sparked by a Mark Reason article.
The gist if you insist on not giving clicks to either Stuff or Reason is, rugby needs someone to capture the public, in the same sort of way that randoms can get excited by watching Messi or Mbappe. He anoints Will Jordan.
Pretty much the entire rugby world would be comfortable calling Jonah rugby's first global superstar. My question is, was he also the last, and if so, why is that?
Rugby guys have the players they love to watch. But is there really anybody that would make a casual turn the TV on to watch a guy go around at the RWC? I loke loose forwards, most people probably have no fucking idea what they are doing half the time.
Is modern elite rugby fundamentally geared against individual stardom? Look ahead to a RWC, are the chances of any main contender built around flair players? or game plans and workhorses?
Do we as fans focus far too much on errors and turnovers to ever truly embrace the guy who is having a crack? Case in point, if Jonah started now, how much of social media would be talking about his high ball work, or his defense, or his workrate? In NZ we have guys like Ioane and Jordan who are just freakish individual talents, and still they have untold critics lining up to take shots at them for all sorts of shit. Do we embrace their pace and flair and ability to tear a side up? Fuck no. Ioane is a hungus who doesn't play like Conrad Smith (great player, but not because of his flair). I am as bad as any. Beauden Barrett is a freaky footballer and i give him heaps of shit. I feel like rugby fans, especially kiwis, are way more Tim Duncan fans than Alan Iverson fans.
What do we reckon?
I think Rugby being a team sport in the truest sense makes this hard.
Lomu was right man right time (freak athlete compared to a lot of skinny white guys at the time).
In other sports, Curry can go lights out from 3, Messi can get a hat trick on his own, Stokes can smash a ton, or Boult can clean up your top order.
Too many moving pieces in Rugby for one player to dominate. The closest I can think of other than Lomu is DC against the Lions.
@foobaNZ said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
The closest I can think of other than Lomu is DC against the Lions
but even then, a lot of the NH said Wilkinson was the bigger star.
Lomu was a singular phenomenon because the whole rugby world and a sizeable part of the general public took one look and went Fuck Sake
@dogmeat said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
@foobaNZ said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
The closest I can think of other than Lomu is DC against the Lions
but even then, a lot of the NH said Wilkinson was the bigger star.
Lomu was a singular phenomenon because the whole rugby world and a sizeable part of the general public took one look and went Fuck Sake
Truly larger than life
Would Jonah still have been considered a rugby superstar if he had been able to play longer and we would have seen his decline (which inevitably comes, especially with wingers)?
If Julian Savea had stopped, for whatever reason, at the top of his career. Or Beaudy. Would we have seen them as rugby superstars?
To me, Dan Carter is a real rugby superstar, even more so than Jonah, because he went to great heights, and hardly fell before he retired.
Not sure about present players.
@Stargazer said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Would Jonah still have been considered a rugby superstar if he had been able to play longer and we would have seen his decline (which inevitably comes, especially with wingers)?
If Julian Savea had stopped, for whatever reason, at the top of his career. Or Beaudy. Would we have seen them as rugby superstars?
To me, Dan Carter is a real rugby superstar, even more so than Jonah, because he went to great heights, and hardly fell before he retired.
Not sure about present players.
Jonah was a superstar because people who didn't know Rugby knew who he was. He's pretty unique in that regard.
@Kirwan yep he even had a Big Mac named after him! And then had NFL teams chasing him because of the profile he had in the States, which is crazy for a rugby player. He's the only true global superstar rugby has ever produced.
@Stargazer said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
@Kirwan I guess it depends on the definition of superstar ...
"an extremely famous and successful performer or sports player."
I think you are confusing it with best rugby player, think Kim Kardasian - fame is unrelated to actual talent and achievements in many cases.
In Jonah's case, he had good timing as the game had just gone professional and he scored super unusual trys just as the game was gaining popularity.
@mariner4life said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Is modern elite rugby fundamentally geared against individual stardom? Look ahead to a RWC, are the chances of any main contender built around flair players? or game plans and workhorses?
It's similar in the NHL - the playoffs are geared towards grinding and workhorses and so the best player in the world (Conor McDavid) and the best regular season team (this year the Boston Bruins) couldn't sniff the Stanley Cup Final.
Having said that - this World Cup does feel like it has the ability to put some players on a serious pedestal if they have a big tournament - Will Jordan, Dupont, the gun new Bok 10 Lubbok etc
Rugby creates many fewer global stars than football. Mainly because the focus in Rugby is so much on the team and the individual’s role within it.
Jonah Lomu was a global Rugby star. He still has a waxwork in London Madame Tussaud’s.
Dan Carter was probably nearest to that in terms of impact since. He won the BBC overseas sports personality of the year in 1995.
I suspect Jonny Wilkinson and Brian O’Driscoll would be known to many people who don’t follow Rugby outside their own countries
Francois Pineaar was played in a Hollywood film by Matt Damon.
Mike Tindall is quite well known because he is married to a member of the British Royal Family.
Gavin Henson used to appear in lots of the women’s magazines and tabloids when he dated Charlotte Church.
Sonny Bill Williams and James Haskell have a big social media presence.
Beauden Barrett and Antoine Dupont would probably be the two most well known current players, but have nothing like the profile of football stars.
I was going to throw SBW's name in the mix. For us aficionados, we're aware of his limitations and can easily discredit some of the accolades he's accumulated by being in the right teams at the right time. But for the casual fan or even non-rugby fan he had a wider appeal.
The argument of style over substance in an interesting one. Messi and Verstappen don't have celeb quality but their pure GOATness make them superstars. Rugby, as a sport, isn't big enough globally for a GOAT (like Dan Carter) to have universal cut through.
There was a bit of talk around Siya Kolisi after the 2019 RWC become the poster boy for rugby. He had an incredible backstory, an easy way with the media and stood for impressive values. He was even signed to Jay-Z's agency. But his feats on the field weren't really highlight reel stuff.
@No-Quarter said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
@Kirwan yep he even had a Big Mac named after him!
As a measure of superstardom I'm not sure what can top this, brilliant benchmark.
No one has come close to the impact that Jonah made on the game IMO. Even in an era that had no social media etc his highlight reels went viral, to the point where teams like the Dallas Cowboys were firing contract offers through.
Dan Carter is probably the next biggest star but his form was a bit up and down in his last years before he finished with a bang.
If Anton Du Pont wins the WC this year he’s probably the next global rugby star if he isn’t already.
@sparky said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Not necessary a superstar, but Sébastien Chabal built up his brand well and has clearly made a ton of money from advertising since he hung up his boots.
He should be in medical books for having the longest wingspan in the world too. Apparently he could scratch his ankles without bending over.
@Canes4life said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Dan Carter is probably the next biggest star but his form was a bit up and down in his last years before he finished with a bang.
DC has stories in autobiography of him and his wife being invited by Elton John to his Oscars after-party and being introduced to lots of Hollywood types who had no idea who he was.
Similarly. Rory McIlroy saw him in the gym at Augusta and wanted a photo together.
I think we can still have superstar, but even as @mariner4life said at start ,Jonah would get shit these days as well, he got enough in his day without internet. If I got a beer from every know all that used to say he was to slow to turn etc, and if he/they coached/played against him they would just kick behind him etc. I used to laugh and ask well why don't you think all these test coaches in the world don't tell their players to do that very thing?
I think same about most players, we really have very little idea watching on tv how good they are, but really most are bloody good players, but as said, if someone in there head decides they want someone else , will find any little mistake and remember it for ever and a day.
But not sure we have had a genuine superstar since Jonah, who was actually bigger than the game I think.
@SBW1 said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Potentially Will Jordan.
I don't think Jordan is close. Despite his record to people really see him as a comparable excitement machine to say Cullen?
Imho it comes down to the highlight reel. Rugby fans could fap endlessly at McGod's feats but casuals didn't get it. Even fewer would appreciate what a front rower does (although they're mostly fat unmarketable fůckers for the most part). Another would be a guy like Itoje. Has the look but line out steals and great work in rucks and mauls don't have mass appeal. So to stand out in rugby you need to either be a massive unit utterly laying waste to people ala Lomu or someone with a crazy skill set like Carter, Cullen or Caucau carving up. I've heard a heap of comments about BB from casuals. Actually I remember showing that 2015 final try to a bunch of Spaniards and they were amazed.
I guess for NZ the best candidate right now would be Jordan. 2 years ago I would have said Clarke.
But I can't see anyone coming close to Jonah in terms of global identity. The timing, look, size, feats etc. were insanely perfect.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Caucau
reckon he was one player with the right management and guiding could have been huge, alas, for differing reasons, I dont think the world saw the best of either Lomu or Caucau.
I think most pundits who name thier best 15, usually have Lomu in the team (insert obligatory Saffas saying he never scored against them)...he may not have been even close to the best winger of his generation, but he was the biggest rugby player.
@taniwharugby said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Caucau
reckon he was one player with the right management and guiding could have been huge, alas, for differing reasons, I dont think the world saw the best of either Lomu or Caucau.
I think most pundits who name thier best 15, usually have Lomu in the team (insert obligatory Saffas saying he never scored against them)...he may not have been even close to the best winger of his generation, but he was the biggest rugby player.
I will always remember being in San Francisco in 90s , wearing an a NZ rugby jersey, and a man who was begging on side of road seeing the jersey, and looked at jersey and said 'ahhh NZ, Jonah Lomu"! What I meant about probably bigger than game, bit like Maradona etc , I don't know hardly any soccer players, and don't watch, but know of him etc.
Why even Richie or Dan C don't make the superstar rating, not really known ouside of game?
@MN5 said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
I do wonder why Cullens aura isn’t quite up there with Jonahs.
Is it cos he kinda bombed out a bit in the only World Cup he ever played in ?
A casual fan would have easily look at him and marvelled at how good he was.
I don't think he ever got a chance to be exposed to a global audience. If he'd done the insane shit of 96-97 at the 99 world cup then it might have been different. Instead he played at 13........................................................................
@mikedogz said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
One way to measure how big a star a player is, is their social media following. Going by Instagram only Dan Carter and SBW are 1mil. Kolisi and Beauden are the highest current players at 710k and 680k. Dwarfed by the numbers of the football superstars.
Yes but you'd have to scrape SBW's following across 2 and a half sports?
It’s definitely “highlight” type guys who have the potential to be stars.
I mean, everyone used to rave about Bill Cavubati and Bull Allen and all the cool shit they did with the ball in hand.
But would anyone who knows rugby select them over Richard Loe and Olo Brown ?
( I probably would until I read the fern )
Guys like Tupou and Asafo Aumua are ones that were starting off on the right trajectory, but the talent that got them highlight reels in their youth ends up being lost to tight, defensive test rugby.
It's generally going to be the guys who are freaks in their position and generally consistently do what others don't.
So it's going to be a front rower that runs like a barnstorming number 8, a loosie that flattens people and runs like a centre or a winger that tears opposition to pieces.
In saying that, our biggest superstar will be one of Ardie or Mounga at the RWC, whichever turns it on the most.
If we were doing tier rankings, then obviously Jonah is alone at the top. And I'd put Carter alone in the second tier. I was in chemist warehouse at the weekend, and DC's face was plastered everywhere (I wonder how many of Chemist Warehouse's Melburnian clientelle have any idea who he is).
For a while Wilkinson was up alongside him, but thankfully that injustice has been corrected.
Third tier, I'd say starts to get busy. BOD, McGraw, Habana certainly. Shane Williams was very big for a little while. Gavin Henson was bigger, but for a shorter while.
I can't think of any Frenchies who are / have been up there - Dupont should be, this RWC could determine a lot. Aussies, don't know, I think because I live here I can't really judge how big their stars are - Eales and Gregan are the two that spring to mind.
Of course the whole thing is a bit of mockery, everyone who actually understands rugby knows that Adam Jones is the only real megastar.
@GibbonRib said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
Of course the whole thing is a bit of mockery, everyone who actually understands rugby knows that Adam Jones is the only real megastar.
Who?
Anyway Honey Badger could do it, for different reasons
@MN5 said in Does Rugby have a Superstar?:
I do wonder why Cullens aura isn’t quite up there with Jonahs.
Is it cos he kinda bombed out a bit in the only World Cup he ever played in ?
A casual fan would have easily look at him and marvelled at how good he was.
Cullen had the skills. It was his personality that couldn't take him to the next level. Don't get me wrong, he doesn't come across as an ahole or anything. Some players just resonate with the fans more than others