The Long, Sad Retreat
At half-time in that game, NZ looked to be well-positioned. They had had plenty of opportunities and were showing more on attack than the French. But in the second, they opened the door to their opposition through poor exits and an appalling strategy of mid-field bombs. Credit must go to the French, but it didn’t take much.
Indeed, we could see it all unravelling in slow motion. Worse, this was a movie we had viewed countless times before these past four years, or more. That it never changes can leave one doubting one’s own sanity. But the culprits are easy enough to spot.
Ever since the glory days up to 2015, NZ rugby has been keeping players (and coaches) well past their use-by dates. When he was gifted the succession by virtue of it being his turn, it quickly became apparent that Foster was not up to it. His ‘strategies’ were worked out by the other top teams years ago, but like a dog returning to its vomit he kept at it.
The corralling of new assistants in Schmidt and Ryan last year papered over the cracks for a while, but it has remained clear since that this remains Foster’s team and his vision. Knowing his contract is over after this tournament, he has clearly decided to go out playing his greatest hits to an audience that moved on years ago.
Of course, the responsibility ultimately lies with a week NZR which has repeatedly accepted Fozzy’s assurances that all was on track - against the evidence to the contrary. That allowed Foster to keep selecting people like BB, who has been on the world’s longest farewell tour.
The players, understandably, have declared their allegiance to Foster and have been repaid in turn with his fidelity, but that seems to have resulted in a lack of candour or willingness to suggest the emperor has no clothes. One wonders at what Ryan and Schmidt think.
On the field, the players look to some of the tiring old officers like Whitelock, Smith and BB to rally around the flag. But it’s hard to fight for a general whom you don’t ultimately respect and who you know is due to be decommissioned after this latest and last and bloody campaign.
Like Napoleon’s march home from Moscow, it’s a long and sad retreat and one you would hopehope would not destroy too many younger souls along the way. But I fear the damage will be too great. Unfortunately, that hope, on this grim evidence, may be forlorn.
@MN5 said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@sparky said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Bull-Dusta said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Be sure to beat Italy in the pool,
Really? I’m anything but sure about that game now.
I predict they’ll hammer Italy and paper over a few cracks
You're assuming that Foster won't select the C team from the squad...
@gt12 said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
I love(d) me some ALB, but 2 runs, 2 metres, 3 tackles, and 1 miss do not a good inside center make.
I said pregame that he's a busted flush. If JB isn't there we are fucked
@Dan54 said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@nzzp said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@ARHS said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Hmm. Two big turn points cost us.
no mention of WJ's brain explosion?
That was a real costly9and poor), and I thought we never recovered, as soon as he went on French started attacking that side of field. Just didn't get it right in second half, I felt a bit for Papali'i , he tries hard, but struggles to make an impact at this level. We certainly struggles to get cleaners to rucks etc, Telea was left exposed on ground a few times after tackle.
Yeah, but we should have the on-field smarts to deal with that. We haven't since 2016 and Foster isn't the man to bring them back.
@MN5 said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@sparky said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Bull-Dusta said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Be sure to beat Italy in the pool,
Really? I’m anything but sure about that game now.
I predict they’ll hammer Italy and paper over a few cracks
Course we will. Our backs will be too good for them. We are too good for the majority of the teams in the world, but we can't take France and South Africa when push comes to shove. I think it is entirely possible we take Ireland and Australia and make the final, because that is how tournament sport works.
Heck, if we get everyone back fit, in a one off game we are good enough to win this tournament. It is tournament sport at the end of the day, the best side won't always win the tournament.
@No-Quarter said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
It was a weird game in the heat. Fozzie said "the hotter the better" for us, so I suspect we felt the French would run out of steam. And that absolutely was the case in the first 40, we were excellent and both Beauden and Mo'unga win multiple kicking duals with them, and by the final 10 minutes the French were out on their feet. We really needed to capitalise here but we failed to put in enough points.
I'd say the French would have been unhappy at how much Beauden and Mo'unga were allowed to dictate play in the first half, so came out in the 2nd 40 with a very clear plan to return to basics and pin us in our own half as much as possible. We didn't adapt to this, and got suffocated out of the game - that's the biggest concern, as SA and Ireland will try and do exactly the same thing, so we have to figure out a way to counter it.
However, if we can get some key players fit by the quarter we are every chance. We've always said our depth was thin coming into this, so the number of injuries has obviously hurt.
Felt we chocked ourselves out rather being suffocated - just didn't even look to clear from our own half ..... France simply didn't want to play in their own half and didn't - this was further enabled by our deep uncontestable restarts and persistence in CHOOSING not to exit from our own territory.
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Dan54 said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@nzzp said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@ARHS said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Hmm. Two big turn points cost us.
no mention of WJ's brain explosion?
That was a real costly9and poor), and I thought we never recovered, as soon as he went on French started attacking that side of field. Just didn't get it right in second half, I felt a bit for Papali'i , he tries hard, but struggles to make an impact at this level. We certainly struggles to get cleaners to rucks etc, Telea was left exposed on ground a few times after tackle.
Yeah, but we should have the on-field smarts to deal with that. We haven't since 2016 and Foster isn't the man to bring them back.
Picking Foster and then failing to fire him early has cost us 4 more years
@Jailbreak7 yeah we lacked urgency in the 2nd half too, all round uber-shite 40 mins of rugby from us.
Almost like we were happy with the 1st and then eased back in the 2nd, then the card, dumb subs, nek minut, game gone.
The result was shit but performance was ok - not a disaster. The disaster is the continued focus on the short kicking game as a default option. When we held the ball and moved the French around we looked great.
Thougth the forwards went ok apart from de Groot giving 2 penalties away and a loose carry in that first 20 minutes or so. Not sure that first French penalty was clear - looked like he was on the body. Scott Barrett player of the day again.
Tactics with short contestable kicks means we are playing in our territory way too much. They need to address the balance - not sure BB can do that, so would like to see Jordan go to full back. That said when they popped the ball over the top they really created chances.
Early in the 2nd half we had 3 chances to clear via RM, BB, AS and no one executed. That was the game. Jordan was pushing the line with contestable kicks, discipline is about getting that right.
In the 2nd half I thought Telea had some space but didn’t seem to have or back his pace to clear out so cut back inside. Trouble with that option is that all your support players overrun you. So for all his obvious strengths I would like to see him take the outside break more often.
Assuming we can win all our remaining pool games, this is not a disaster but will the Coaches amend short kicking tactics ( drop BB ) or double down and hope the execution is better? The strike rate seems too low at the moment.
For those who follow American football Mo'unga reminds a lot of a star dominant college QB who can't translate to the NFL.
His running game which dominates at the lower level simply doesn't transfer and the nuts and bolts of the position (passing for a QB, territory kicking and game driving for a 10) he just isn't strong enough in when he has to fall back on it at the higher level and gets exposed.
@canefan said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@gt12 said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
I love(d) me some ALB, but 2 runs, 2 metres, 3 tackles, and 1 miss do not a good inside center make.
I said pregame that he's a busted flush. If JB isn't there we are fucked
A few short years ago him and Jack Goodhue looked a very decent midfield. Hasn’t quite remained that way unfortunately
@taniwharugby said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Jailbreak7 yeah we lacked urgency in the 2nd half too, all round uber-shite 40 mins of rugby from us.
Almost like we were happy with the 1st and then eased back in the 2nd, then the card, dumb subs, nek minut, game gone.
Scott McCleods half time interview said as much. They were going to run them off their feet. That should have been in the last 15 minutes. Not straight after half time. Just clear the line and play in their territory.
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@kiwiinmelb said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Shit way to start the weekend
That bad started last night for you with the Broncos win!
Was a disappointing loss, but with our high risk tactics, we have to be super accurate. Time to look ahead at the next match.
Yeah it did but I had little expectations for this current storm side, they are making up the numbers.
I guess I hadn’t given up with the abs though even though the warning signs were well and truly there
Of the teams I follow an Allblacks loss always hurts the most
@kev said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
The result was shit but performance was ok - not a disaster. The disaster is the continued focus on the short kicking game as a default option. When we held the ball and moved the French around we looked great.
Thougth the forwards went ok apart from de Groot giving 2 penalties away and a loose carry in that first 20 minutes or so. Not sure that first French penalty was clear - looked like he was on the body. Scott Barrett player of the day again.
Tactics with short contestable kicks means we are playing in our territory way too much. They need to address the balance - not sure BB can do that, so would like to see Jordan go to full back. That said when they popped the ball over the top they really created chances.
Early in the 2nd half we had 3 chances to clear via RM, BB, AS and no one executed. That was the game. Jordan was pushing the line with contestable kicks, discipline is about getting that right.
In the 2nd half I thought Telea had some space but didn’t seem to have or back his pace to clear out so cut back inside. Trouble with that option is that all your support players overrun you. So for all his obvious strengths I would like to see him take the outside break more often.
Assuming we can win all our remaining pool games, this is not a disaster but will the Coaches amend short kicking tactics ( drop BB ) or double down and hope the execution is better? The strike rate seems too low at the moment.
I don't want to knock the guy because I thought he played well, but I noticed that too. I have been saying for a while that he appears to lack pace at test level. Those two examples you mentioned ended up putting us under pressure.
@allblackfan2 said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@MN5 not an excuse, a factor.
I think them just being, you know, a better team was a bigger factor personally
@Crazy-Horse said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@kev said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
The result was shit but performance was ok - not a disaster. The disaster is the continued focus on the short kicking game as a default option. When we held the ball and moved the French around we looked great.
Thougth the forwards went ok apart from de Groot giving 2 penalties away and a loose carry in that first 20 minutes or so. Not sure that first French penalty was clear - looked like he was on the body. Scott Barrett player of the day again.
Tactics with short contestable kicks means we are playing in our territory way too much. They need to address the balance - not sure BB can do that, so would like to see Jordan go to full back. That said when they popped the ball over the top they really created chances.
Early in the 2nd half we had 3 chances to clear via RM, BB, AS and no one executed. That was the game. Jordan was pushing the line with contestable kicks, discipline is about getting that right.
In the 2nd half I thought Telea had some space but didn’t seem to have or back his pace to clear out so cut back inside. Trouble with that option is that all your support players overrun you. So for all his obvious strengths I would like to see him take the outside break more often.
Assuming we can win all our remaining pool games, this is not a disaster but will the Coaches amend short kicking tactics ( drop BB ) or double down and hope the execution is better? The strike rate seems too low at the moment.
I don't want to knock the guy because I thought he played well, but I noticed that too. I have been saying for a while that he appears to lack pace at test level. Those two examples you mentioned ended up putting us under pressure.
He was outnumbered in both cases. When in space Telea was great. Not express fast, but he has quick feet and a smart fend
Anyway, I think the biggest thing we have to do, is workout what our best bench is. The best sides have great benches that bring plenty to it.
I think Sami T arguably deserves the start, so I'd go Taylor in 16. Though I don't think he is perfect, I think Williams could bring some impact. Him and Newell, so some good SR continuity. Scooter goes the 80 for me, so perhaps due to his injury issues, we use BBBR as a dynamite option for the last 20. Frizell starts 6, I think they have to call Blackadder in to the squad, or at the very least Finau. Those guys are impact options, they fill 20. Roigard in 21, ALB in 22, Fainga'anuku in 23.
@Crazy-Horse said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@kev said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
The result was shit but performance was ok - not a disaster. The disaster is the continued focus on the short kicking game as a default option. When we held the ball and moved the French around we looked great.
Thougth the forwards went ok apart from de Groot giving 2 penalties away and a loose carry in that first 20 minutes or so. Not sure that first French penalty was clear - looked like he was on the body. Scott Barrett player of the day again.
Tactics with short contestable kicks means we are playing in our territory way too much. They need to address the balance - not sure BB can do that, so would like to see Jordan go to full back. That said when they popped the ball over the top they really created chances.
Early in the 2nd half we had 3 chances to clear via RM, BB, AS and no one executed. That was the game. Jordan was pushing the line with contestable kicks, discipline is about getting that right.
In the 2nd half I thought Telea had some space but didn’t seem to have or back his pace to clear out so cut back inside. Trouble with that option is that all your support players overrun you. So for all his obvious strengths I would like to see him take the outside break more often.
Assuming we can win all our remaining pool games, this is not a disaster but will the Coaches amend short kicking tactics ( drop BB ) or double down and hope the execution is better? The strike rate seems too low at the moment.
I don't want to knock the guy because I thought he played well, but I noticed that too. I have been saying for a while that he appears to lack pace at test level. Those two examples you mentioned ended up putting us under pressure.
I think more than pace he needs to kick ahead in those situations - territory is king - kick ahead and pressure. He also got caught in the Bok game when he should have exited with a kick (that time he attempted the kick but was too slow).
@canefan said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Crazy-Horse said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@kev said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
The result was shit but performance was ok - not a disaster. The disaster is the continued focus on the short kicking game as a default option. When we held the ball and moved the French around we looked great.
Thougth the forwards went ok apart from de Groot giving 2 penalties away and a loose carry in that first 20 minutes or so. Not sure that first French penalty was clear - looked like he was on the body. Scott Barrett player of the day again.
Tactics with short contestable kicks means we are playing in our territory way too much. They need to address the balance - not sure BB can do that, so would like to see Jordan go to full back. That said when they popped the ball over the top they really created chances.
Early in the 2nd half we had 3 chances to clear via RM, BB, AS and no one executed. That was the game. Jordan was pushing the line with contestable kicks, discipline is about getting that right.
In the 2nd half I thought Telea had some space but didn’t seem to have or back his pace to clear out so cut back inside. Trouble with that option is that all your support players overrun you. So for all his obvious strengths I would like to see him take the outside break more often.
Assuming we can win all our remaining pool games, this is not a disaster but will the Coaches amend short kicking tactics ( drop BB ) or double down and hope the execution is better? The strike rate seems too low at the moment.
I don't want to knock the guy because I thought he played well, but I noticed that too. I have been saying for a while that he appears to lack pace at test level. Those two examples you mentioned ended up putting us under pressure.
He was outnumbered in both cases. When in space Telea was great. Not express fast, but he has quick feet and a smart fend
I guess what I would like to see when it is more open as it was a couple of times, is that he stretches the cover defence which can open up running lines for his support players.
@KiwiMurph said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
territory is king
this! Sadly something this team (coaches included) dont seem to recognise.
@MN5 said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Serious question.
At his absolute best what exactly does Tupou Vai’i bring to the team ?
Has won out through the halo effect, lack of other options, and his ability/other inability to stay fit.
I'm no great fan, but he isn't better than Patty Tuipulotu.
@kev said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@canefan said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Crazy-Horse said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@kev said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
The result was shit but performance was ok - not a disaster. The disaster is the continued focus on the short kicking game as a default option. When we held the ball and moved the French around we looked great.
Thougth the forwards went ok apart from de Groot giving 2 penalties away and a loose carry in that first 20 minutes or so. Not sure that first French penalty was clear - looked like he was on the body. Scott Barrett player of the day again.
Tactics with short contestable kicks means we are playing in our territory way too much. They need to address the balance - not sure BB can do that, so would like to see Jordan go to full back. That said when they popped the ball over the top they really created chances.
Early in the 2nd half we had 3 chances to clear via RM, BB, AS and no one executed. That was the game. Jordan was pushing the line with contestable kicks, discipline is about getting that right.
In the 2nd half I thought Telea had some space but didn’t seem to have or back his pace to clear out so cut back inside. Trouble with that option is that all your support players overrun you. So for all his obvious strengths I would like to see him take the outside break more often.
Assuming we can win all our remaining pool games, this is not a disaster but will the Coaches amend short kicking tactics ( drop BB ) or double down and hope the execution is better? The strike rate seems too low at the moment.
I don't want to knock the guy because I thought he played well, but I noticed that too. I have been saying for a while that he appears to lack pace at test level. Those two examples you mentioned ended up putting us under pressure.
He was outnumbered in both cases. When in space Telea was great. Not express fast, but he has quick feet and a smart fend
I guess what I would like to see when it is more open as it was a couple of times, is that he stretches the cover defence which can open up running lines for his support players.
Yet no one read the play and working hard to get there and get over the ball.... its not rocket science
@Duluth said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Carry metres by our forwards:
Ardie Savea 38
Dalton Papali'i 36
Scott Barrett 34daylight
Nepo 9
Can’t help wondering how Hoskins Sotutu, Akira Ioane or Samipeni Finau would have gone?
@MN5 said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Serious question.
At his absolute best what exactly does Tupou Vai’i bring to the team ?
Hoskins and Akira are wondering who they had to blow to get that kind of favouritism
@Duluth said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
Carry metres by our forwards:
Ardie Savea 38
Dalton Papali'i 36
Scott Barrett 34daylight
Nepo Laulala 9
Samisoni Taukei'aho 7
Others..
TV was a passenger it seems.
I feel like NZ rugby thinks playing territory is a sin. Kick out and compete at lineout or kick long and defend in a line. My nightmare now is those midfield bombs, they are such a poor percentage play. We had the winning of this game at halftime but the 2nd half was a tactical disaster.
@Billy-Tell yep, very odd, look at all the panelties we conceded in kicking distance, do these down field, less of an issue.
as anonymous as Vaii was, he should never be playing 6 anyway.
@KiwiMurph said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@Crazy-Horse said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
@kev said in RWC: France v All Blacks:
The result was shit but performance was ok - not a disaster. The disaster is the continued focus on the short kicking game as a default option. When we held the ball and moved the French around we looked great.
Thougth the forwards went ok apart from de Groot giving 2 penalties away and a loose carry in that first 20 minutes or so. Not sure that first French penalty was clear - looked like he was on the body. Scott Barrett player of the day again.
Tactics with short contestable kicks means we are playing in our territory way too much. They need to address the balance - not sure BB can do that, so would like to see Jordan go to full back. That said when they popped the ball over the top they really created chances.
Early in the 2nd half we had 3 chances to clear via RM, BB, AS and no one executed. That was the game. Jordan was pushing the line with contestable kicks, discipline is about getting that right.
In the 2nd half I thought Telea had some space but didn’t seem to have or back his pace to clear out so cut back inside. Trouble with that option is that all your support players overrun you. So for all his obvious strengths I would like to see him take the outside break more often.
Assuming we can win all our remaining pool games, this is not a disaster but will the Coaches amend short kicking tactics ( drop BB ) or double down and hope the execution is better? The strike rate seems too low at the moment.
I don't want to knock the guy because I thought he played well, but I noticed that too. I have been saying for a while that he appears to lack pace at test level. Those two examples you mentioned ended up putting us under pressure.
I think more than pace he needs to kick ahead in those situations - territory is king - kick ahead and pressure. He also got caught in the Bok game when he should have exited with a kick (that time he attempted the kick but was too slow).
Not sure he has that or it’s a natural instinct. Something Skudder was so adept at doing.