Malo boys. Malo. You did us proud.
Obviously gutted. There are days and there are days. This is the latter. Decipher that as you will.
I would like to think, that what was the centrepiece of our game being utterly ruined like this, there will be some wholesale changes to improve it. So it doesn't ever happen again. But then that would assume that the people who decide the rules actually care about the game. There is no feel for the gravity of the situation or what’s at stake from that gormless tnuc in the TMO box. He’s a grown up hall monitor. The teachers pet that even the teacher doesn’t fucking like. The feeling with any of these officials should be about the game. It’s flow and the affect whatever contentious call may have on the game. It can not be some idiot, train spotter with zero fan in him making these calls. I’m not for a moment suggesting that these people turn a blind eye. But to over turn an on field decision so long after the fact. To decide one head contact doesn’t require any type of review and then another a red card. Then once the precedent has been set go ahead and ignore your own standards by allowing Kolisi to return. That not only is there no feel for the game but there is a level of self interpretation going on. Not a clear directive.
Im absolutely fine with SA winning. They deserved it. They played what was in front of them and defended like demons. du Toit was immense. I wish we had someone in our team that kept people looking to see where he is. He fairly blindsided fucking everyone today.
We had the chance to take the lead and we missed both of them. We also l, IMO, should have kept pushing instead of taking the long range attempt. Our ball security was horrid and players we’ve depended on went missing. Jordan and Taylor at the front of that line. I felt the choice to sub Smith was the worst call we made as a team. He was in control and the game was far from decided. Christie shouldn’t have been in the match day squad let alone on the field.
Telea was my MOM. He was outstanding. Savea close behind. The props DeGroot and Lomax carried well and held up our scrum amazingly.
I don’t think we were supposed to win. Not in the stars, World Rugbys plans and certainly not in the poor excuse for a coaches playbook. If there’s one take away from all of this, and I am not vengeful person, but Fozzy did not really deserve to have “World Cup winning head coach” in his resume. And he doesn’t.
Malo boys. Malo. You did us proud.
@MajorRage said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Our exits were better, but did anybody else notice that our long exit kicks were significantly better in open play than in free kicks / penalties?
What is that about? I hope that DMac at 10 can peel off more distance with our exits next season
@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@mariner4life said in [RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks]
Frizzell was carded for falling over
That's the one we were really dudded on, I think.
"A rugby collision", O'Keefe said - and that's basically what this was. They said as much when they didn't upgrade it. And handed the Boks the early momentum.
I didn’t know the law / focus area of not allowing people to fall on exposed knees etc - ITV had the Irish ref on call who immediately called it as an issue, Barnes then reffed it exactly as he said he should. He was actually concerned it would be red. The fact we didn’t know about it doesn’t mean it wasn’t reffed correctly
Which law?
If he'd done it intentionally, it would have been red. Accidentally falling on someone is an accident.
20d, and intentionally is not mentioned in that law
Dangerous play in a ruck or maul.
A player may lever the jackler out of the contest at the ruck but must not drop their weight onto them or target the lower limbs.
"Target" is the operative word.
very good point SF wasn't even looking at the legs.
Which is why it stayed as a YC
Penalised for the neck roll
YC for dropping his weight on the jackaler
YC because it wasn’t deliberate and ‘targeted’
YC for attempting to avoid Kitshoffs forearm that still managed to connect with Frizells head?
I don't think I have the energy to read through all the comments during the match.
My reaction at the final whistle was a mixture of pride and disappointment.
Despite Cane's RC and the Barnes/Foley comedy show the ABs still had the opportunity to win this game. JB and Mo'unga will rue their missed kicks. One of them would have done.
Commiserations Kiwis. That was a great final, and a great effort from your team. Very unlucky in the end.
r.e. the cards - my view (from watching in real time in a very busy pub, so I might change my mind when I've watched it back) is that they were all correct, except possibly Frizell's which seemed harsh, didn't seem to me that he did much wrong.
Cane's red and Kolisi's yellow - I reckon they were correct decisions, but it does suck.
Two things:
We're all sick of talking about it, but the inconsistency is killing us. When the TMO intervenes, which offences are which colour, etc. There's no excuse for it.
And while I think Cane's was a RC offence and Kolisi's was a YC due to mitigation, it really highlights that while difference between a red and yellow offence can be very marginal, the differnce between the punishments is massive - especially for an early red. I wasn't a fan of the 20 minute rule when it was first suggested, but I've come around to thinking it would help.
@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@mariner4life said in [RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks]
Frizzell was carded for falling over
That's the one we were really dudded on, I think.
"A rugby collision", O'Keefe said - and that's basically what this was. They said as much when they didn't upgrade it. And handed the Boks the early momentum.
I didn’t know the law / focus area of not allowing people to fall on exposed knees etc - ITV had the Irish ref on call who immediately called it as an issue, Barnes then reffed it exactly as he said he should. He was actually concerned it would be red. The fact we didn’t know about it doesn’t mean it wasn’t reffed correctly
Which law?
If he'd done it intentionally, it would have been red. Accidentally falling on someone is an accident.
20d, and intentionally is not mentioned in that law
Dangerous play in a ruck or maul.
A player may lever the jackler out of the contest at the ruck but must not drop their weight onto them or target the lower limbs.
"Target" is the operative word.
"Or target" he dropped his weight on the lower limbs= penalty/card. At the same time as he was attempting a neck roll.
It was dumb, penalty only for me, but you asked what law. That's the law. Argue if you want, but that's the law
Hope Cane has a strong support network. Dude completely let his team down. Will be hard to reconcile and hopefully the country isn't too hard on him.
We played pretty well otherwise considering what was on the line. Ability under the high ball was a bit disappointing though.
PStD was immense. One of the all time performances. There will be a few AB's with PTSD after that. It was exactly the performance we were hoping to see from our captain.
@mariner4life said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
The one thing that I don't think we should let the coaching team and players off with is our poor discipline. We all knew this was a problem and has been a big problem over the last few years, so why have they not fixed it? Two yellows against Ireland and the cards today in the two biggest games of the year is simply unforgivable.
Cane was trying to get us up, and it kinda worked
Frizzell was carded for falling over
Savea was penalised for nothing.Our discipline wasn't bad today. If cane is a fraction lower on a guy changing direction we're starting to put them under pressure
Cane's red was definitely a red. No excuses and unacceptable from a captain in a RWC final. Refs are extra harsh on the ABs now and seem to let SA off with their indiscretions, so it was even more crucial for our guys to watch their discipline.
Agree with you on Frizell's YC, that was a bs call.
@GibbonRib said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Commiserations Kiwis. That was a great final, and a great effort from your team. Very unlucky in the end.
r.e. the cards - my view (from watching in real time in a very busy pub, so I might change my mind when I've watched it back) is that they were all correct, except possibly Frizell's which seemed harsh, didn't seem to me that he did much wrong.
Cane's red and Kolisi's yellow - I reckon they were correct decisions, but it does suck.
Two things:
We're all sick of talking about it, but the inconsistency is killing us. When the TMO intervenes, which offences are which colour, etc. There's no excuse for it.
And while I think Cane's was a RC offence and Kolisi's was a YC due to mitigation, it really highlights that while difference between a red and yellow offence can be very marginal, the differnce between the punishments is massive - especially for an early red. I wasn't a fan of the 20 minute rule when it was first suggested, but I've come around to thinking it would help.
Mitigation on Kolisi? What bit is mitigation? The bit where AS is upright and SK clocks him on the nose?
@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Machpants said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Chris-B said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@mariner4life said in [RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks]
Frizzell was carded for falling over
That's the one we were really dudded on, I think.
"A rugby collision", O'Keefe said - and that's basically what this was. They said as much when they didn't upgrade it. And handed the Boks the early momentum.
I didn’t know the law / focus area of not allowing people to fall on exposed knees etc - ITV had the Irish ref on call who immediately called it as an issue, Barnes then reffed it exactly as he said he should. He was actually concerned it would be red. The fact we didn’t know about it doesn’t mean it wasn’t reffed correctly
Which law?
If he'd done it intentionally, it would have been red. Accidentally falling on someone is an accident.
20d, and intentionally is not mentioned in that law
Dangerous play in a ruck or maul.
A player may lever the jackler out of the contest at the ruck but must not drop their weight onto them or target the lower limbs.
"Target" is the operative word.
"Or target" he dropped his weight on the lower limbs= penalty/card. At the same time as he was attempting a neck roll.
It was dumb, penalty only for me, but you asked what law. That's the law. Argue if you want, but that's the law
So you can't fall over in rugby anymore?
@Joans-Town-Jones yeah I thought Kolisi was the worse, looked more like he was rising up, whereas Cane was always too high.
But we knew this RWC would have a contentious RC, and oddly, I have been surprised how few there have been, up until the big dance...
@Rancid-Schnitzel no but then leaving Jordon on would have been dicey too. The occasion just got the better of him.
@raznomore said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel no but then leaving Jordon on would have been dicey too. The occasion just got the better of him.
I reckon DMac for Jordan would have been the better option at that point
@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Nepia said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
The only thing I'd really call Barnes out on was that he would call play it earlier for Smith than for Faf.
None of that was on Barnes. Barnes was fine, it was the random TMO coming in that was the difference. Barnes shouldn't be copping it
In the first half, Barnes let a lot go in terms of high shots and some of the challenges for high balls where Kolbe in particular was very late/didn't time his jump and just hit the Mo'unga. For the second half, Barnes just commentated for the TMO although in his defence, at least he was more accurate and more interesting than the ITV crowd..
For the disallowed try, he had called it on the field as a knock back onto Ardies leg and said play on. For the subsequent penalty and following two penalties, Barnes and the assistants seemed to just be guessing and hoping the TMO would help them out.
When Kwagga Smith came on, a number of balls started flying out of rucks on the Bok side after he had told Smith to get his hands off the ball and the jackler supporting their weight became optional. I think the only penalty after the 56th minute was Kolbe's sending off for either side.
Barnes retreated from the game and let others handle it. Similarly, the assistant refs didn't provide a lot of assistance which is probably why the TMO became so key to many decisions. And that indicates to me that either Barnes team weren't up to the task of a final or that the TMO has taken too much control away from the referee making it difficult to manage a game. Or both.
@raznomore said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel no but then leaving Jordon on would have been dicey too. The occasion just got the better of him.
He was definitely having a mare, but he's the guy who can turn a game in an instant in those dying moments. ALB was never going to spark something.
@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Joans-Town-Jones yeah I thought Kolisi was the worse, looked more like he was more upright and driving up, whereas Cane was always too high.
But we knew this RWC would have a contentious RC, and oddly, I have been surprised ow few there have been, up until the big dance...
And I'm not disputing the SC red card. Heck, I would settle for a penalty for both only at the most. I'm not even blaming Barnes. We had our chances. But fuck me the TMO needs to fuck off. If SF is copping a YC for that, you have to penalise every tackle on rugby and we are one step away from playing 15 aside touch.
@PecoTrain said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Nepia said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
The only thing I'd really call Barnes out on was that he would call play it earlier for Smith than for Faf.
None of that was on Barnes. Barnes was fine, it was the random TMO coming in that was the difference. Barnes shouldn't be copping it
In the first half, Barnes let a lot go in terms of high shots and some of the challenges for high balls where Kolbe in particular was very late/didn't time his jump and just hit the Mo'unga. For the second half, Barnes just commentated for the TMO although in his defence, at least he was more accurate and more interesting than the ITV crowd..
For the disallowed try, he had called it on the field as a knock back onto Ardies leg and said play on. For the subsequent penalty and following two penalties, Barnes and the assistants seemed to just be guessing and hoping the TMO would help them out.
When Kwagga Smith came on, a number of balls started flying out of rucks on the Bok side after he had told Smith to get his hands off the ball and the jackler supporting their weight became optional. I think the only penalty after the 56th minute was Kolbe's sending off for either side.
Barnes retreated from the game and let others handle it. Similarly, the assistant refs didn't provide a lot of assistance which is probably why the TMO became so key to many decisions. And that indicates to me that either Barnes team weren't up to the task of a final or that the TMO has taken too much control away from the referee making it difficult to manage a game. Or both.
Interesting point. The onfield officials put the whistle away and listened in as it was reffed from the TV.
@Joans-Town-Jones yep, either both Red or both not IMO, 2 solid head contacts where the tackler wasnt in the right position
@Rancid-Schnitzel agree. But if there was anyone who I wanted the ball to go to it was Talea and he was still on the field. A myriad of things could have happened to turn the game and unfortunately they didn’t come off. I doubt very much ALB coming on, in the grand scheme of things, was the losing of the game.
I don't drink much and my parents wouldn't let me kick their cat so I went for a run to get out the anger and disappointment. Running in the opposite direction was a guy wearing a Bok jersey. He was a goofy looking mofo (not your Teutonic, beef fed specimen that wins world cups) and despite my bitterness I gave him a salute.
It's what we do.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I don't drink much and my parents wouldn't let me kick their cat so I went for a run to get out the anger and disappointment. Running in the opposite direction was a guy wearing a Bok jersey. He was a goofy looking mofo (not your Teutonic, beef fed specimen that wins world cups) and despite my bitterness I gave him a salute.
It's what we do.
I bet you wanted to hit him high, no arms, no mitigation....
@raznomore said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel agree. But if there was anyone who I wanted the ball to go to it was Talea and he was still on the field. A myriad of things could have happened to turn the game and unfortunately they didn’t come off. I doubt very much ALB coming on, in the grand scheme of things, was the losing of the game.
Talea was farking incredible.
I never said the ALB had any real bearing on the game. Just didn't think it was the best sub to make. Should have been DMac.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I don't drink much and my parents wouldn't let me kick their cat so I went for a run to get out the anger and disappointment. Running in the opposite direction was a guy wearing a Bok jersey. He was a goofy looking mofo (not your Teutonic, beef fed specimen that wins world cups) and despite my bitterness I gave him a salute.
It's what we do.
No time like the present to change that
@Rancid-Schnitzel yeah sorry I realised after I hit send it sounded like I calling you out. No, more my feeling just tacked on at the end.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@raznomore said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel agree. But if there was anyone who I wanted the ball to go to it was Talea and he was still on the field. A myriad of things could have happened to turn the game and unfortunately they didn’t come off. I doubt very much ALB coming on, in the grand scheme of things, was the losing of the game.
Telea was farking incredible.
I never said the ALB had any real bearing on the game. Just didn't think it was the best sub to make. Should have been DMac.
He's been one of the finds of the year, cemented his spot for me, although that's up to Razor now. And DMac suggested, in his short cameo, that he has the temperament to run the cutter in 2024. We obviously have a few holes to fill. But the bones of a very good team are there
@canefan yup we have the makings of a world beating team. We need some very aggressive hard hitting locks and 2 straight nutcases on the flanks with Savea.
Well, it's been a few hours and I'd love to say I've moved on. But I haven't. I'm fucking gutted. I thought this shit was supposed to get easier after you have kids and approach 50 - apparently not.
First, congrats to SA. There is something to be said for knowing exactly who you are as a team. You defended incredibly especially well in the first half. Your high kicks were on point, all contested well. You made your shots at goal. I very much dislike the tactics Rassie employs, and the time-wasting especially has to be stopped - but it's not really your responsibility to make either of things happen.
On the reffing, I'm certainly in the camp of less-TMO intervention being needed. Cane's red was fair under current rules, though I simply can't see how there was sufficient mitigation for Kolisi's head-first challenge to not be treated the same way . It was reckless and head-to-head - any anyone claiming no force should look at how much it rocks Ardie here.
https://www.theroar.com.au/rugby-union/video/siya-kolisis-tackle-isnt-upgraded-smith-has-try-chalked-off-in-painful-five-minutes-for-abs-1314995/\
Frizells was just plain odd, and was a 6 point swing.
The AB's played their hearts out, they should be proud of the effort. We certainly weren't error free though, lots of dropped ball and forced passes, and Richie and Jordie will replay those kicks in their heads for years to come. Still, mistakes happen when you get tired, and playing that Springbok team with 14 men for 60mins had to be exhausting. Incredible that we stayed so close.
The kicking discussion has been done to death, but the one tactic I didn't understand today was why we stopped competing at their lineout in the 2nd half? We had them under loads of pressure, then we just stopped - even when in their half. Bizarre.
Anyway, time for a new chapter to be written for these AB's, despite all the gnashing and claims that "this isn't the sport we used to love", the reality is that we will all be here the next time the men in black line up, cheering just as loudly .
I do hope we see some change to the cards system, the 20min red might not be perfect, but surely its a more sensible outcome for anything other than foul play. I'd also like to see time-wasting clamped down on, medics and water runners un-miked, and the TMO only being used to review things at the refs request.
Fuck it, while I'm at it, lets ditch scrum penalties too, they're a lottery and I have no idea why we have decided that having a shit scrum should be a penalisable offense - we don't penalise teams for having a shit lineout. Scrum dominance should mean you have a great platform to attack from, and a weak one should mean shit scrappy ball or a tighthead. A free kick awarded for infringing.
That's enough for me - congrats again SA Ferners - enjoy your day you horrible fluffybunnies!
@raznomore said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan yup we have the makings of a world beating team. We need some very aggressive hard hitting locks and 2 straight nutcases on the flanks with Savea.
Razor whispers "Blackadder"
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I don't drink much and my parents wouldn't let me kick their cat so I went for a run to get out the anger and disappointment. Running in the opposite direction was a guy wearing a Bok jersey. He was a goofy looking mofo (not your Teutonic, beef fed specimen that wins world cups) and despite my bitterness I gave him a salute.
It's what we do.
I bet you wanted to hit him high, no arms, no mitigation....
All I can say is that I was running for alot longer than Sam Cane today...
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@raznomore said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan yup we have the makings of a world beating team. We need some very aggressive hard hitting locks and 2 straight nutcases on the flanks with Savea.
Razorhalf the fern whispers "Blackadder"
FIFY
@MN5 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@raznomore said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan yup we have the makings of a world beating team. We need some very aggressive hard hitting locks and 2 straight nutcases on the flanks with Savea.
Razorhalf the fern whispers "Blackadder"FIFY
Are half the ferners originally from Chch? Or do they love Ethan in Poland too?
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MN5 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@raznomore said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan yup we have the makings of a world beating team. We need some very aggressive hard hitting locks and 2 straight nutcases on the flanks with Savea.
Razorhalf the fern whispers "Blackadder"FIFY
Are half the ferners originally from Chch? Or do they love Ethan in Poland too?
That’s certainly one to ponder over the cricket season my friend.
@Yeahtheboys said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
So glad they didn’t selected Roigard would’ve been sickening to see something come on with attacking flare at the end. Shot eh Foz
If Christie couldn't run around those tiring fatties, how could we expect Cam to? ?
@canefan would not be surprised if next year Christie isn’t even in the ABs. Goes from 2nd choice behind nug to 4th choice without Nug
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MN5 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@raznomore said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan yup we have the makings of a world beating team. We need some very aggressive hard hitting locks and 2 straight nutcases on the flanks with Savea.
Razorhalf the fern whispers "Blackadder"FIFY
Are half the ferners originally from Chch? Or do they love Ethan in Poland too?
Us got polish Chickie's love the rippling muscles