A dog of a game

@Jet said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@Jet said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@Jet said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

Finally managed to watch this.

The bullshit tmo intervention at 48 minutes reminded me why I sort of hated the RWC.

Pack has too many passengers. Vaai utterly absent, blackadder just too mediocre. TJP too slow, not enough pace in the backs. And Aumua having a throwing mare as he’s prone to.

Argentina were great, especially their pack and especially their back row.

We have terrible record in wgtn.

Up to you mr Robertson.

In order to beat the Boks this year we need to try and run them off their feet. We arent winning an arm wrestle with our current bunch.

Firstly Razor needs to bleat like fuck in the media and behind the scenes with officialdom about tactical injuries, boots slipping off at opportune moments, tactical HIA's, waterboys on the pitch etc.

He then needs to pick the likes of Jordan, Ratima, Love, Hotham, Sititi, Ioane, Proctor and Clarke and we need to run those fat cheating fucks off their feet.

Any penalty within 60m of their poles and Jordie should be having a shot.

Ratima or Hotham need to be sniping plenty to focus the attention of their backrow.

Id be bringing Clarke in off DMAC's shoulder on first phase to skittle a few bowling pins. Or least as a decoy. He KO'd two springboks last year, one of whom was Faf De Klerk.

90% agree. We won’t be able to run them off their feet. Not unless we get go forward like the 2nd test 2022.

Now that the dust has settled, the line has been drawn and I’m hoping the coaches have decided they’ll make like House MD and be total c@nts for the rest of this year at the minimum. This was one of my many complaints about Fozzy. All good being nice but you had Rassie, Steady Eddy, the whole of Ireland acting like absolute twats and the marching one over us. Some of the penalties and TMO interjections we are coping are beyond absurd.

Also, the ABs lost that more than the Pumas won. A loss none the less but two howlers by our own blokes and a half yard forward pass and that was a 21 point win.

Im still seething over the World Cup final. Barnes and co were a disgrace.

Yes and no. I’m still pissed too but it was the TMO more than Barnes I feel. Barnes really should have told him to feck off. SF’s YC was the most innocuous incident to be considered foul play. Having said that, that final scrum. If that was minute 1, that’s an AB’s penalty all day.

The final scrum. The Ardie penalty for not releasing that cost 3 points. The inconsistency in the Kolisi/Cane sanctions. Either they are both nothing, both yellow or both red.
The constant TMO intervention.
The Frizzell yellow for a heretofore unsanctioned offence. Never seen it given.
Etzebeth elbowing Sam Cane full force in the face right in front of Barnes.

It was a horror show and one of the reasons Razor and friends need to start watching Alex Ferguson videos for inspiration in defending ones own interests. We are getting walked all over since Lions test 2 2017. SBW was sent, but Vunipola forearm smashed Barrett in the face two yards out side a ruck and didnt get red.

We are no angels granted but we have been turning the other cheek for about 7 years.

Kitsoff at least got caught using his forearm twice. One where he smashed SF which caused him to fall over and concede the YC then again into EdG. Blood everywhere. Sad thing is, like last night, is that despite such BS, still should have won.

@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@Jet said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@Jet said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@Jet said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

Finally managed to watch this.

The bullshit tmo intervention at 48 minutes reminded me why I sort of hated the RWC.

Pack has too many passengers. Vaai utterly absent, blackadder just too mediocre. TJP too slow, not enough pace in the backs. And Aumua having a throwing mare as he’s prone to.

Argentina were great, especially their pack and especially their back row.

We have terrible record in wgtn.

Up to you mr Robertson.

In order to beat the Boks this year we need to try and run them off their feet. We arent winning an arm wrestle with our current bunch.

Firstly Razor needs to bleat like fuck in the media and behind the scenes with officialdom about tactical injuries, boots slipping off at opportune moments, tactical HIA's, waterboys on the pitch etc.

He then needs to pick the likes of Jordan, Ratima, Love, Hotham, Sititi, Ioane, Proctor and Clarke and we need to run those fat cheating fucks off their feet.

Any penalty within 60m of their poles and Jordie should be having a shot.

Ratima or Hotham need to be sniping plenty to focus the attention of their backrow.

Id be bringing Clarke in off DMAC's shoulder on first phase to skittle a few bowling pins. Or least as a decoy. He KO'd two springboks last year, one of whom was Faf De Klerk.

90% agree. We won’t be able to run them off their feet. Not unless we get go forward like the 2nd test 2022.

Now that the dust has settled, the line has been drawn and I’m hoping the coaches have decided they’ll make like House MD and be total c@nts for the rest of this year at the minimum. This was one of my many complaints about Fozzy. All good being nice but you had Rassie, Steady Eddy, the whole of Ireland acting like absolute twats and the marching one over us. Some of the penalties and TMO interjections we are coping are beyond absurd.

Also, the ABs lost that more than the Pumas won. A loss none the less but two howlers by our own blokes and a half yard forward pass and that was a 21 point win.

Im still seething over the World Cup final. Barnes and co were a disgrace.

Yes and no. I’m still pissed too but it was the TMO more than Barnes I feel. Barnes really should have told him to feck off. SF’s YC was the most innocuous incident to be considered foul play. Having said that, that final scrum. If that was minute 1, that’s an AB’s penalty all day.

The final scrum. The Ardie penalty for not releasing that cost 3 points. The inconsistency in the Kolisi/Cane sanctions. Either they are both nothing, both yellow or both red.
The constant TMO intervention.
The Frizzell yellow for a heretofore unsanctioned offence. Never seen it given.
Etzebeth elbowing Sam Cane full force in the face right in front of Barnes.

It was a horror show and one of the reasons Razor and friends need to start watching Alex Ferguson videos for inspiration in defending ones own interests. We are getting walked all over since Lions test 2 2017. SBW was sent, but Vunipola forearm smashed Barrett in the face two yards out side a ruck and didnt get red.

We are no angels granted but we have been turning the other cheek for about 7 years.

That's because we Kiwis are the morally superior nice guys of sport. We don't complain in the media and we don't sack underperforming coaches (Hi Mr Penny).

I’ve been harping on about this for years. That loss in Chicago in late 2016 and Hansen’s flawed idea that SBW was the man at 12 despite committing 2 years to league and 7s was the start of it all.

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

"The players didn't do what we coached"

Well you and your mates selected them and coached them...

im actually wondering if he has a point. i always wondering way fozzie wasn't reviewing and fixing issues that came up in previous games....maybe he was...and then come game time they just did what they wanted

Have we got too many big personalities? too many guys that think they know better? too many not smart enough to remember what has been coached? too many that play on vibe? too many that think they'll never get dropped so dont care?

It's an interesting comment that. If he's talking specific things, then I'd expect people to be dropped.
I do hope people get dropped, because our players look like they need to get less comfortable in a big hurry.

@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

It's an interesting comment that. If he's talking specific things, then I'd expect people to be dropped.
I do hope people get dropped, because our players look like they need to get less comfortable in a big hurry.

?. Can't say something like that and not drop someone. Otherwise it's just bullshit speak

I think Ardie is likely in the gun most. As captain he bears most responsibility for decisions made on the field, and some of his own weren't great. Plan was probably to rotate him out for game 2 having won game 1 anyway.
TJP, who shouldn't be blocking Ratima's development and has not played well.
Jordie too maybe, he's been mediocre and all the other midfielders have had a rotation.
If Aumua hadn't shat the bed I'd say Taylor too.
I really hope they don't fuck with McKenzie. He's clearly the best we've got, and he's working into that crucial starting 10 role - don't mess with his confidence. If you want to send a message, drop some veterans.

you're right...but the the powers that be dont have the nuts for wholesale change, they dont buy into the idea that young guys when given a shot can step up...and if they do they should be rewarded

I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?

Even more concerning how their respective franchises improved out of sight after they left...

@Jet said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

Razor looked and sounded meek. I cant picture him giving them a half time spray at all.

The body language from himself and Ardie was (for want of a better adjective) Beta.

I thought he was going to cry

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?

Holland and McDonald?

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?

I'm starting to think Razor is a bit like Eddie Jones as a head coach, in that he only works with subordinates who either think similarly to him or will tow the line, doesn't appear to be interested in strong personalities who may challenge him.

two years ago Schmidt couldn't work with Razor because of philosophical differences in their coaching approach, Brown was probably the same, hence he would rather coach with SA than the pinnacle for any NZ coach - the ABs.

@darylmitchell said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

I kind of expected this tbh when you look at Razor's assistants. Did anyone look at Holland and McDonald and think to themselves this is a star studded team?

I'm starting to think Razor is a bit like Eddie Jones as a head coach, in that he only works with subordinates who either think similarly to him or will tow the line, doesn't appear to be interested in strong personalities who may challenge him.

two years ago Schmidt couldn't work with Razor because of philosophical differences in their coaching approach, Brown was probably the same, hence he would rather coach with SA than the pinnacle for any NZ coach - the ABs.

You certainly don’t know Razor at all if you think that it is so far over the top it’s not funny.

@Chris maybe so, i've read guys who've know him like O'Gara say he's unconventional and is a bit of a mad genius, i was just speculating there because Eddie Jones was similar in a way, a real out of the box thinker and great coach but had a tendency to surround himself with sub-par assistants.

@darylmitchell I would think Sotutu is the opposite of a strong personality from what I've seen/heard.

@darylmitchell said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

two years ago Schmidt couldn't work with Razor

Because he was already in foster's team and he felt morally wrong going with a replacement, nothing to do with Razor

@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.

I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.

He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.

We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.

@darylmitchell said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@Chris maybe so, i've read guys who've know him like O'Gara say he's unconventional and is a bit of a mad genius, i was just speculating there because Eddie Jones was similar in a way, a real out of the box thinker and great coach but had a tendency to surround himself with sub-par assistants.

I have meet Razor a couple of times, I wouldn’t say I know him very well, not as well as another person on the Fern who is close to Razor.
But I know a few players who have been coached by Razor and some people who have coached with him and they paint a completely different picture,Yes he is unconventional as I understand it.

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season).

You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season).

You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?

No there wasn’t.

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?

No there wasn’t.

Is that you Mr Ryan?

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?

No there wasn’t.

Is that you Mr Ryan?

No, I’m Steve Hansen. No, I’m actually Fozzie.

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.

I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.

He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.

We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.

I think my whole comment still stands and I don’t really see your argument. He is the best 6 in the team and has been replaced at 6 by someone who is a 6.5 and is only starting because he’s played in Razors teams previously. It’s a complete comfort pick and a guy who has already peaked. Finau has so much room to grow, why not grow him now and continue to get test match experience along the way? Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.

1. We lack an enforcer/big 6.
2. Finau was dropped from the 23(not completely from the squad like you’re saying).

So the whole jumping at shadows thing… not really sure about that.

@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.

If only this Akira fellow was a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and knows how to be part of a winning team, he'd sound ideal!

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.

If only this Akira fellow was a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and knows how to be part of a winning team, he'd sound ideal!

oh and bonus point if he picks fights with scrappy halfbacks..

@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.

I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.

He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.

We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.

I think my whole comment still stands and I don’t really see your argument. He is the best 6 in the team and has been replaced at 6 by someone who is a 6.5 and is only starting because he’s played in Razors teams previously. It’s a complete comfort pick and a guy who has already peaked. Finau has so much room to grow, why not grow him now and continue to get test match experience along the way? Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.

1. We lack an enforcer/big 6.
2. Finau was dropped from the 23(not completely from the squad like you’re saying).

So the whole jumping at shadows thing… not really sure about that.

There’s no evidence to suggest that they have “given up after 2 tests”, so not sure why you suggest that.

It’s not unusual if history is anything to go by that new coaching set ups try different players to see where things are at. Happened under Mitchell, Henry, Hansen and Fozzie. Different styles of players were played in the same position.

I expect a bit of rotation as they find the best lineup, especially in the loose forwards given the number of loosies in the squad.

I'm disappointed as anyone on here but some of the gossip and speculation in this thread is bs.

I still haven't watched the game, but from looking at the stats, Paps seemed to have a very non-like-him game - I know he was subbed at 65 minutes, but he was well last in tackles for the loosies. It looks to me (from only looking at the stats), that we have two very similar 7s out there. Blackadder leads for tackles (by some distance) with stats that look very Sam Cane like (lots of tackles, lots of carries, not many metres) except for the three penalties.

It looks like all the running came from Ardie - according to ESPN he had 19 carries for 51 metres, and it looks like that is about the same as every other forward combined. I don't see why they picked supposed 'running' props but haven't used them. Williams (at least) is ready for the next step, let's go, we need more ball carrying.

WTF happened to Sititi? Stats say he was penalized 3 times in 15 minutes? Fucking ouch. I wonder if throwing a totally green kid into a game with 15 left when we are in shit is quite the method of bringing him along?

Third quarter rewatch.

Tighties again good in lineouts and all but one maul. Both starting pack and replacement props generated some go forward. In particular, four or five pick 'n goes generated big metres before Telea try.

Three penalties which had a large element of luck generated all of Puma's 13 points in period.

First, Darry on the carry is tackled. The cleaner, Lomax, was delayed avoiding a previous tackler still on the ground. Darry's tackler was slow to roll, but made just enough effort to avoid Gardner penalising, and lets Matera in. Another day the clean is made or tackler caught not rolling away;
Second, the Niggles penalty for being bumped off by Pumas prop;
Third, Paps makes excellent covering tackle, but falls awkwardly and unable to roll away. Very similar to first of the penalties above but didn't go our way.

Pumas deserve tremendous plaudits for their extraordinary skill in coverting three marginal penalties way out from our line into 13 points!!

Quite apart from the excellent goal kicks, Carreras also set up the maul try by landing the penalty punt 5m from AB goal line. An unconventional maul, which ABs clearly hadn't contemplated, and Pumas overloaded the gap between Lomax and Darry, who was defending the dummy jump by Puma 8.
13/13

Ratima on at 56:30 and Ofa/Newell at 58.30. Immediaely DMac getting ball wider and quicker.
Also, at this juncture the forward pod 'screening' DMac starts to rumble and make short offloads, which worked well.

Bad DMac missed penalty at 58:30.

At 59:30 classic Jordan break one out from ruck, and ABs right on Puma line before being called back for Ratima kick, which Gardner adjudged a knock on 'becuase he wasn't in control when his leg connected' [is that a Law?].

In summary, ABs had the better of about 15 of the 20 minutes, but the three penalties awarded to Pumas left the scoring 10-13 to Pumas.

@pakman I can't find anything on needing to be in control of the ball to make a kick. But then again I can't find anything on what constitutes a lick either (looked to me like it glanced off just above the knee before the foot and I thought a kick was from below the knee).

@Bones I'm pretty sure the knee or shin is a legal kick.

From first principles I thought propelling the ball forward, other than by a kick, only became a knock on if the ball touched something else, being the ground, another player, the posts or even the ref.

So if you, for example, caught the ball before it touched anything else it wasn't a knock on.

@pakman on the former, I recall it coming up when Los did his off the knee chip and it got clarified after.

The latter, that was my understanding as well, don't recall anything about control, just the ball travelling forward and hitting something other than you before you can regain.

I agree with the thrust of what Chris Jones was saying here. What was remarkable about the first Test was the fragility of the All Blacks and seeing players with many Test caps get so badly wrong what should be basic skills for professional rugby players to execute. Slapdash.

@pakman said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

which Gardner adjudged a knock on 'becuase he wasn't in control when his leg connected' [is that a Law?].

My understanding it is

Players can't drop a ball (knock forward) and kick it and claim it was a kick. He must be in control of the ball before the kick

@Bones said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:

@pakman I can't find anything on needing to be in control of the ball to make a kick. But then again I can't find anything on what constitutes a lick either (looked to me like it glanced off just above the knee before the foot and I thought a kick was from below the knee).

But the lost forward can't be cancelled out by kicking it. I think it can if you catch it though. But this is based on the refs rulings only

@Winger has it correct as I understand it. They clarified after someone lost the ball and got a toe to it - you have to be intentional to kick the ball

By definition, if you lose the ball forward, you actually need to catch it before doing anything else. ("When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.")

So in this instance, Ratima loses the ball forward and because he doesn't catch it before kicking it, it's a knock on.

You don't see it always ruled correctly but the same thing applies if a player loses the ball forward then manages to bat it backwards before it hits the ground - by the letter of the law, that's still a knock on, even if it's ultimately hit the ground behind where it was batted back from.

Yes I thought the ref was clear on how he lost control so could not kick it without regathering first.

Some people get confused because league has a different knock on law. They don't call a knock on if you kick it before it touches the ground