An Expected Loss

@Smuts said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

@stodders said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

I think the centres need some work. NZ needs a 12 that will get them over the advantage line. DDA was immense today. Jordie was good, but he has been hot and cold this year. McKenzie needs an out ball at 12, like DC used to have with Nonu.

No you don’t. Jordie is great. Holds your backline together. He’s the load bearing Barrett. And so is his brother Scott.

Nah even as a Canes supporter I don't think Jordie is the answer long term, I'd be happy if he returned to fullback tbh where his ability under the high ball and his kicking game are way more of an asset. All Jordie does is run hard and straight and even then he doesn't always get over the gain line because he doesn't have power.. The ABs are so predictable because when Jordie decides to run you know he's going straight with his inability to step and evade defenders with silky footwork.

@BerniesCorner Reiko from the bench would give real impact against tiring defences and cover for 11/13/14.

Clark and Jordan on the wings. Just need to find a fullback who is brave under the high ball, with a good boot and a sense of adventure to attack when the opportunity presents itself. Love maybe. What about Sullivan? Too raw?

The name is Rieko.
There are some really overblown comments on this thread.
Kolisi is a decent player, the SA midfield is one of the current best, their bench timings and bench talent clearly better than ours.
We are still very close but something falls off 50 to 60 minutes in. The bench drop is interesting, against England I thought finally the coaches were timing it right.
Not any more.
It's not like NZ to have such an unsettled 15 or back three. Stick to a specialist 15 and choose dominant wingers. For example, I like Reece, he is normally very hardworking, but he seems to get overwhelmed at test level against quality opposion.
Our older bench players are not offering calm heads. I agree we still have a leadership problem. But Cane plays better when not Captain.
Overall I have enjoyed these games (but the reffing last game soured it for me) and if we can improve the backline and the brains I think we are going to do ok.
People have forgotten how badly the ABs were at the start of the Foster period.

I sound like a broken record but it needs to be highlighted. On at least 2 occasions in this game south African forwards ran at savea one-on-one...

And he backed off and scragged both times instead of coming forward and getting a shoulder in

And a part of me died on each occasion. Our starting #8 is a physical non-entity on defence.

@Jet said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

Kolisi….if he was white , nobody would care about him. Nothing player. Tactical injury instigator, ref whisperer, and heads or tails caller.

Can't help but agree

@stodders said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

@BerniesCorner Reiko from the bench would give real impact against tiring defences and cover for 11/13/14.

Clark and Jordan on the wings. Just need to find a fullback who is brave under the high ball, with a good boot and a sense of adventure to attack when the opportunity presents itself. Love maybe. What about Sullivan? Too raw?

I'm not sure about Sullivan but he should be tried, has size, and his boot could be useful

On the subs

What I think the huge benefit to south africa is, because they do them so early, to the merriment of traditionalists (lol their starters can't even play 60)

When the whips are cracking at the death, their players are well settled in to the rhythm of the game, where as ours, on at a more "traditional" time, are still finding their feet. It's proving an enormous advantage.

Rassie may be a giant fuck wit, but he's on to something in a big way there.

And we left players like Taylor and Lomax on way too long so they got the full benefit of their fresh begs against tiring players.

@stodders never. Just because he isn’t threatening with ball in hand and isn’t defensively menacing doesn’t mean you should drop him for an effective 2nd 5

And that's old school thought too "oh they are our best players, playing well, leave them on".

We have for years railed against sub by numbers, but there does need to be more thought

@Canes4life I hope you never coach the all blacks

@mariner4life it suits the Boks because they have 2 sets of tight fives that are of similar quality.

No other country comes close to their depth in this area. Possibly France.

Rassie chances it with his 6/2 or 7/1 splits, but until he cracks a mirror or runs over a black cat, his luck on injuries may well continue ?

@stodders said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
Segner at 7? 6?

@nostrildamus he’s playing 7 for Auckland, so play him there. If Cane doesn’t go on EOYT, 7s should be DP, Segner and Savea to cover if needed.

In my book after that performance Sititi gets to pick 8 or 6.
Do people agree it was mad to take him off.

Savea is good enough to play 6,7 or 8.
Things aren't quite right in the loosies.

@BerniesCorner said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

Things aren't quite right in the loosies.

I agree, Robertson has done a really shit job with his specialist area

@Duluth let’s see if he realises and changes things.

@Smuts said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

@Canes4life I hope you never coach the all blacks

Take your blinkers off, he's been well below his best this year and wasn't that great in Super Rugby either.

You're the one that thinks Jordie is 'great'. He's isn't even close to being a great AB. Infact he's building a reputation of botching shit when it matters. (Twice for the Canes against the Brumbies in consecutive years) and for the ABs in the WC final, and then again for the Canes in the semi against the Chiefs this year where he had a shocker.

In saying all that, he's probably the best we have to choose from atm so he keeps his spot. That just shows how shit our depth is atm.

@Canes4life said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

@Smuts said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

@Canes4life I hope you never coach the all blacks

Take your blinkers off, he's been well below his best this year and wasn't that great in Super Rugby either.

Careful. It might be a Bok trolling lure

@Canes4life said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

@Hooroo said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

How fucking poke is Talea? Can’t and won’t tackle and can’t catch.

Wouldn't mind someone like AJ Lam taking his spot in the squad tbh. He's versatile aswell which is a bonus.

Too many guys in the squad used to losing at the moment. We need to inject some youthful enthusiasm.

@Canes4life sorry C4L I was trying to be facetious. I think Jordie is the kind of player the boks love playing against. If I had may way he’d be undroppable

@nostrildamus didn’t even bait the hook

Justin Marshall losing his voice in the post-match circle-jerk... too much sucking-off Bokke, or... has deliberately infected himself with COVID, and insinuating himself to interact with the Bokke as much as possible? Just 2 weeks too late, like a fucking idiot.

@nostrildamus said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

@stodders said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

@BerniesCorner Reiko from the bench would give real impact against tiring defences and cover for 11/13/14.

Clark and Jordan on the wings. Just need to find a fullback who is brave under the high ball, with a good boot and a sense of adventure to attack when the opportunity presents itself. Love maybe. What about Sullivan? Too raw?

I'm not sure about Sullivan but he should be tried, has size, and his boot could be useful

We definitely need a few cannons in the team. Had my hopes up for Stevenson 18 months ago when he was scoring tries every week but apparently he tackles like a rhubarb tart.......although we still concede 30 odd every other week with Beaudy back there so can it be any worse.

Maybe if you are booting them back down into their corner you dont have to defend so much

@Smuts said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

@nostrildamus didn’t even bait the hook

Ha!

First thing is, that was a SA team with major changes. They've beaten us twice with significantly different teams.
That game was a real step backwards for me, and I'm much more disappointed with that than the previous loss. Reason being we went back to box kicks (and even a defensive bomb FFS), and we couldn't contest. Meanwhile the Saffas put up contestable kicks, and we didn't protect our catchers anywhere near as well as they did. We were shit at that under Foster, and I'm really quite fucked off to see that we haven't improved in those areas at all.
Up front, not too bad. Scrum under pressure early. Cody Taylor was superb, even despite fucking up the last lineout - shoulda been subbed by then really. Lomax I thought was really good around the field, other than the card, which I thought should have been penalty only - and again he should have been subbed by then. He makes a lot of tackles, and has pretty sweet hands for a fatty. Williams holding his own which is enough for a young fella, he'll be an asset on the bench once de Groot is back. Did Ofa manage to play 10 minutes without getting penalised this week?
Tupou Vaai. Way to come right when we need you mate, best lock on the park for me.
Scott Barrett looked a bit better this week though still not quite full noise and that knock on was a fucking shocker.
Sititi was what I expected, got stuck in to his carries which was great, missed a bit on defence but played pretty well for a starting debut out of position in SA. Not good enough to be getting MOTM votes when Taylor, Vaai, Lomax, Cane all played the way they did though.
Savea, jeez I just don't know anymore.
Ratima was a huge upgrade on TJP, who was as expected shit when he came on. Experience does not equal composure.
McKenzie bit disappointing off the tee. He is still the guy who can shift the ball quick enough to get around the defence though.
Jordie a bit anonymous, Rieko underwhelming.
Telea pretty horrible, Reece too really - though TJ joining the maul deserves a mention for that Marx try.
The sky didn't fall with Jordan at fullback. Beauden added nothing.

That ref is fucking hopeless, but he's no part of the reason for the loss. He was far better than last time we had him (Twickenham?) and a million times better than in whichever game it was at the WC where he made a fucking disgrace of himself.

@stodders said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

@nostrildamus he’s playing 7 for Auckland, so play him there. If Cane doesn’t go on EOYT, 7s should be DP, Segner and Savea to cover if needed.

Segner in front of Lakai?

Am not of the Canes Mafia, but I'd be leaning Lakai.

@BerniesCorner said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

In my book after that performance Sititi gets to pick 8 or 6.
Do people agree it was mad to take him off.

Savea is good enough to play 6,7 or 8.
Things aren't quite right in the loosies.

No. Think it was the right call. Think he'd gassed himself. Wasn't prominent in that period just prior to subbing.

You can see why they picked him. Both sides of the ball.

Edit: a future at 7? A Cane replacement who carries?

@reprobate said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

First thing is, that was a SA team with major changes. They've beaten us twice with significantly different teams.
That game was a real step backwards for me, and I'm much more disappointed with that than the previous loss. Reason being we went back to box kicks (and even a defensive bomb FFS), and we couldn't contest. Meanwhile the Saffas put up contestable kicks, and we didn't protect our catchers anywhere near as well as they did. We were shit at that under Foster, and I'm really quite fucked off to see that we haven't improved in those areas at all.
Up front, not too bad. Scrum under pressure early. Cody Taylor was superb, even despite fucking up the last lineout - shoulda been subbed by then really. Lomax I thought was really good around the field, other than the card, which I thought should have been penalty only - and again he should have been subbed by then. He makes a lot of tackles, and has pretty sweet hands for a fatty. Williams holding his own which is enough for a young fella, he'll be an asset on the bench once de Groot is back. Did Ofa manage to play 10 minutes without getting penalised this week?
Tupou Vaai. Way to come right when we need you mate, best lock on the park for me.
Scott Barrett looked a bit better this week though still not quite full noise and that knock on was a fucking shocker.
Sititi was what I expected, got stuck in to his carries which was great, missed a bit on defence but played pretty well for a starting debut out of position in SA. Not good enough to be getting MOTM votes when Taylor, Vaai, Lomax, Cane all played the way they did though.
Savea, jeez I just don't know anymore.
Ratima was a huge upgrade on TJP, who was as expected shit when he came on. Experience does not equal composure.
McKenzie bit disappointing off the tee. He is still the guy who can shift the ball quick enough to get around the defence though.
Jordie a bit anonymous, Rieko underwhelming.
Telea pretty horrible, Reece too really - though TJ joining the maul deserves a mention for that Marx try.
The sky didn't fall with Jordan at fullback. Beauden added nothing.

That ref is fucking hopeless, but he's no part of the reason for the loss. He was far better than last time we had him (Twickenham?) and a million times better than in whichever game it was at the WC where he made a fucking disgrace of himself.

Good point about Jordan. I was expecting some flashy injecting himself 15 move though - is that a powder dry coaching decision?

@booboo said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

@BerniesCorner said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

In my book after that performance Sititi gets to pick 8 or 6.
Do people agree it was mad to take him off.

Savea is good enough to play 6,7 or 8.
Things aren't quite right in the loosies.

No. Think it was the right call. Think he'd gassed himself. Wasn't prominent in that period just prior to subbing.

You can see why they picked him. Both sides of the ball.

Some of the subs are ordinary and have had years to prove themselves

@booboo said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

@stodders said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

@nostrildamus he’s playing 7 for Auckland, so play him there. If Cane doesn’t go on EOYT, 7s should be DP, Segner and Savea to cover if needed.

Signer in front of Lakai?

Am not of the Canes Mafia, but I'd be leaning Lakai.

Have to try Lakai at some point. Segner might have more useful size against the bigger NH packs.

@mariner4life said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

On the subs

What I think the huge benefit to south africa is, because they do them so early, to the merriment of traditionalists (lol their starters can't even play 60)

When the whips are cracking at the death, their players are well settled in to the rhythm of the game, where as ours, on at a more "traditional" time, are still finding their feet. It's proving an enormous advantage.

Rassie may be a giant fuck wit, but he's on to something in a big way there.

I don't know if it's a good comparison but it's a little bit like cricket where it is very difficult for a batsmen to come and and start hitting from ball one. He's much more likely to do well if he has a bit of time to get settled.

The Boks also make multiple changes at once with the same group of players coming on, so they don't lose their cohesion as those players know the gameplan and train specifically as a group of subs instead of them coming on one after the other or at random times.

Anyway, Razor was always going to be learning on the job given his inexperience at test level and he's been taught a few lessons by other international coaches so far, no more obvious than against Rassie and SA these past two weekends. He loves a good learning, I wonder what he has learnt from these two matches? Hopefully a lot.

@Damo said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

I want to stick up for the ref. I thought he was really good. I couldn't find major fault in any decision. I thought he got the YCs exactly correct. He was good in the breakdown about not allowing tacklers to help jacklers get onto the ball. Where the tackler cleared the area he was consistent in penalising isolated players.

With the pace of the game at this level and the complexity of the situation, I don't think that is as good a game as you will ever see.

Also I did not like TJ making sarcastic comments in commentary about last week's ref. That sort of thing is churlish and unbecoming.

Yes the ref was not an issue

TJ's commentary was so unprofessional. Whining first and then occasionally pulling back when watching the replay

It's a wider issue too. I think too many fans are leaping to blaming external forces rather than looking at the coaches/players and the quality of the opposition. We have to earn success.. currently we aren't very good

@nostrildamus said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

@reprobate said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

First thing is, that was a SA team with major changes. They've beaten us twice with significantly different teams.
That game was a real step backwards for me, and I'm much more disappointed with that than the previous loss. Reason being we went back to box kicks (and even a defensive bomb FFS), and we couldn't contest. Meanwhile the Saffas put up contestable kicks, and we didn't protect our catchers anywhere near as well as they did. We were shit at that under Foster, and I'm really quite fucked off to see that we haven't improved in those areas at all.
Up front, not too bad. Scrum under pressure early. Cody Taylor was superb, even despite fucking up the last lineout - shoulda been subbed by then really. Lomax I thought was really good around the field, other than the card, which I thought should have been penalty only - and again he should have been subbed by then. He makes a lot of tackles, and has pretty sweet hands for a fatty. Williams holding his own which is enough for a young fella, he'll be an asset on the bench once de Groot is back. Did Ofa manage to play 10 minutes without getting penalised this week?
Tupou Vaai. Way to come right when we need you mate, best lock on the park for me.
Scott Barrett looked a bit better this week though still not quite full noise and that knock on was a fucking shocker.
Sititi was what I expected, got stuck in to his carries which was great, missed a bit on defence but played pretty well for a starting debut out of position in SA. Not good enough to be getting MOTM votes when Taylor, Vaai, Lomax, Cane all played the way they did though.
Savea, jeez I just don't know anymore.
Ratima was a huge upgrade on TJP, who was as expected shit when he came on. Experience does not equal composure.
McKenzie bit disappointing off the tee. He is still the guy who can shift the ball quick enough to get around the defence though.
Jordie a bit anonymous, Rieko underwhelming.
Telea pretty horrible, Reece too really - though TJ joining the maul deserves a mention for that Marx try.
The sky didn't fall with Jordan at fullback. Beauden added nothing.

That ref is fucking hopeless, but he's no part of the reason for the loss. He was far better than last time we had him (Twickenham?) and a million times better than in whichever game it was at the WC where he made a fucking disgrace of himself.

Good point about Jordan. I was expecting some flashy injecting himself 15 move though - is that a powder dry coaching decision?

Solid is a good start, positionally he was fine and he picked off that cross-kick nicely. The tries will come, though not every game - that's the easy bit for him.
Shouldn't have kicked that ball ahead though, too much looking for a BB miracle play there, keep it in hand, look for support, put some value on possession.

@reprobate said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:

First thing is, that was a SA team with major changes. They've beaten us twice with significantly different teams.
That game was a real step backwards for me, and I'm much more disappointed with that than the previous loss. Reason being we went back to box kicks (and even a defensive bomb FFS), and we couldn't contest. Meanwhile the Saffas put up contestable kicks, and we didn't protect our catchers anywhere near as well as they did. We were shit at that under Foster, and I'm really quite fucked off to see that we haven't improved in those areas at all.
Up front, not too bad. Scrum under pressure early. Cody Taylor was superb, even despite fucking up the last lineout - shoulda been subbed by then really. Lomax I thought was really good around the field, other than the card, which I thought should have been penalty only - and again he should have been subbed by then. He makes a lot of tackles, and has pretty sweet hands for a fatty. Williams holding his own which is enough for a young fella, he'll be an asset on the bench once de Groot is back. Did Ofa manage to play 10 minutes without getting penalised this week?
Tupou Vaai. Way to come right when we need you mate, best lock on the park for me.
Scott Barrett looked a bit better this week though still not quite full noise and that knock on was a fucking shocker.
Sititi was what I expected, got stuck in to his carries which was great, missed a bit on defence but played pretty well for a starting debut out of position in SA. Not good enough to be getting MOTM votes when Taylor, Vaai, Lomax, Cane all played the way they did though.
Savea, jeez I just don't know anymore.
Ratima was a huge upgrade on TJP, who was as expected shit when he came on. Experience does not equal composure.
McKenzie bit disappointing off the tee. He is still the guy who can shift the ball quick enough to get around the defence though.
Jordie a bit anonymous, Rieko underwhelming.
Telea pretty horrible, Reece too really - though TJ joining the maul deserves a mention for that Marx try.
The sky didn't fall with Jordan at fullback. Beauden added nothing.

That ref is fucking hopeless, but he's no part of the reason for the loss. He was far better than last time we had him (Twickenham?) and a million times better than in whichever game it was at the WC where he made a fucking disgrace of himself.

Agree with most of that.

And yes, that ref is a fucking gimp. He is awful. But it wasnt his fault today.

Still seen some stuff today where I just shook my head (at the sport/laws) and the pedantry.

They influence the flow of a game way too much.

Fozzie never lost a Rugby Championship

Think we've held on to some players way too long. Ardie, BB, TJ, Ofa their time has come and gone. Who mentioned Lakai, might be time to give him Love and Procter a try. Want to say something positive but I'm struggling here. Some of the decision making and handling skills were truly awful. I expected better. Need time to regroup and lick our wounds.